The SiteVisit

Building Grit Without Breaking Men with Trevor Botkin

• James Faulkner • Season 7 • Episode 189

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What if the very traits that make construction crews unstoppable are the same ones pushing too many workers to the edge? We sit down with veteran carpenter and superintendent Trevor Botkin to unpack mental health in the trades, from ADHD and school struggles to the pride and purpose found on site—and the hidden costs of powering through.

Trevor traces how culture formed: overtime as a badge, days off frowned upon, and the old mantra of “leave your personal life at the gate.” He challenges hypermasculinity as a pressure vessel—strength without compassion—and offers a better blueprint for durable toughness: early conversations, rest as maintenance, and leadership that measures people by more than output. We explore the athlete mindset for job sites, where caloric burn rivals a marathon, bodies need recovery, and crews benefit from simple, repeatable practices like warmups, hydration, micro-breaks, and mental reset tools.

Stress doesn’t stop at the broom or the boardroom. Laborers face financial strain, supers carry the physical reality of budgets and schedules they didn’t set, and PMs juggle thin margins and reputational risk. Overwhelm spikes when failure feels close. Trevor shares practical ways to widen the gap: build buffer into schedules, praise early risk flags, and promote for composure and care. We also widen the lens to AI and robots—how automation could reshape entry-level tasks while opening new paths that reward judgment, sequencing, and people leadership.

The heart of the conversation is hope. Trevor introduces Muster Point, a national peer support effort that connects workers who’ve survived injury, addiction, and burnout with those still in the storm. Trust travels faster when stories match, and simple check-ins can stop a spiral before it ends in tragedy. If we treat tradespeople like the high performers they are, we can keep the grit, lose the silence, and make sure more of our people stick around to build the next project—and the next life chapter.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a coworker, and leave a review so more crews can find it. Your one message could be the nudge someone needs today.

PODCAST INFO:
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Opening Banter And Intros

SPEAKER_01

E nailed it. I turn around and I'm like, where are they? Just right there. Perfect. Perfect. Welcome to the site visit podcast leadership and perspective from construction. Your host.

Guest Background And Early Career

SPEAKER_00

Recorded live from the toe floor. Vancouver.

SPEAKER_01

So the island, whereabouts now?

SPEAKER_03

Victoria. Well, just close to Victoria, actually, West Shore area. Bedroom community of the big city by island standards.

SPEAKER_01

So I got this big list from Build X, and uh I saw what you did, the Don't Change podcast, and I'm like, uh, I want to talk to him. So that's very cool. And then when I looked a little bit more research online about you, I'm thinking, okay. I have been talking about mental health and construction for a long time. I've been a big advocate of trying to figure out um the different spectrums of where uh where it pops into the industry and where it pops out, what people it matters for, what people it doesn't. Um and it's a it's it's a it gets a bit of a construction gets a bit of a bad reputation when it comes to you know high suicide rates, who, you know, and and so talking to someone like you, um, so you've got the you work on the Don't Change podcast, and also the other one is this toolbox one, right?

SPEAKER_03

Off the clock, toolbox one.

SPEAKER_01

Off the clock, okay, that's very cool.

SPEAKER_03

Just launched season five.

SPEAKER_01

So your history is you've been in construction service like since you were 19. Yeah. And then you had an injury with your back. What when was that? What age was that at?

SPEAKER_03

I was 29 years old when I was in the city. 29 years old.

SPEAKER_01

So 10 years in. Yeah. Okay, and then you were, and how much pain were you in most of the time?

School Struggles ADHD And Trades Fit

SPEAKER_03

You know, uh my whole career I've been in pain. I don't think that's sort of abnormal for most of the guys. I mean, it's you know, it's a heavy demanding job. Um looking back, I wish I had treated myself more like an athlete than a carpenter.

SPEAKER_01

You know? Good point, good point. Yeah. So you are a carpenter. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I'm a I'm an RSC carpenter, a longtime superintendent, uh working all over Western Canada, three decades. Um, you know, I came into the trades like a lot of people, um, a lot of people that I know. Uh we we just kind of didn't fit in somewhere else, right? Like I had some challenges in school.

SPEAKER_01

Um uh can we double click on that for a second? Yeah, dude. Okay. Um so challenges with school. So I did this podcast, I think it's a th four or five episodes back, right, with this ADHD um specialist from New Zealand. Right. And who was dealing with helping people in construction. Yeah. And uh she says I I said, so is this ADHD or or ADD? We we knew at it as we were younger. Is this a new thing? Because when I was in high school and and being a Gen Xer, it was just you couldn't concentrate and what she said was the very interesting part about boys, specifically in school, is they're disinterested. It's not that they're dumb, it's just but when you uh put something towards them that they're interested in, they excel at it. So when it's interesting when you said, you know, in school, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I was like that. Yeah. In art class, I got A's. Right? And then it's it's an it's an interesting uh when you apply yourself. Yeah. I remember I did um my grade 12 year, I got on the honor roll because I actually and I never did before. I got nice terrible grades before because I was not interested.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But when you do decide you're gonna be interested. So just like you with Carpentry, when you decide, I bet you're very good at it.

SPEAKER_03

Oh man, yeah. Like compared to school, um, and my, you know, there was disinterest, but like I, you know, looking back through the lens I have now, like I clearly was not dumb. But my ability to focus was not there. I'd get distracted very easily. I had a hard time staying awake in class because my social anxiety outside of um what to do with going to school uh led to like insomnia, like just so many things came together to make my school career uh really not awesome, suboptimal. A lot of kids have that. Yeah. But I grew up on, yeah, no, seriously.

SPEAKER_01

Like many kids.

Construction’s Strengths And Stigma

SPEAKER_03

And I uh I, you know, I came out of my high school career like wanting to avoid school altogether and believing because of the way I was I was taught and the way I was treated, uh, not only by my contemporaries, like other students, but my teachers, that like I had some special needs, right? Oh, okay. I came into the industry because I learned like I'd renovated a house, I'd build a new home, I grew up on a farm, I had tons of aptitude, right? Yeah, and uh and that sort of passed down to me from a Saskatchewan farm family work ethic. You know, and I'd show up on I showed up day one on the job set, I was like, this is this is my people, this is where I belong. Um I loved the go get it attitude, like the work hard, play hard. Um, and I excelled very quickly, very, very quickly. Um, and then you know, I think like any young person that struggles, you find a space where you're valuable, you have purpose, and uh, and you feel sort of empowered, like I I just bought into it, man. Like I was in it, hook, line, and sinker. I still am, man. I love the industry. Yeah, I'm so grateful for the people and and the work and and the life that construction has given me, right? Um, you know, I I know the industry is getting uh uh you know kind of getting slandered here a bunch right now, and and it's not, you know, it's not unjustifiable that we're you know, kind of feeling like there's a crisis with the suicide statistics and the overdose statistics, substance use numbers, but I I come at it from a bit of a different thing, is like I don't blame the industry. I I think that if you look at all the things all the social determinants of health that predispose somebody to extra substance use challenges or addiction or significant mental health traumas, they're also kind of like the predeterminants of uh life in construction, right? Like we didn't do well in school, maybe, and looking back now, I clearly had a learning disability. Um I do have undiagnosed AG uh, or I at that time had undiagnosed ADHD. Um it's diagnosed now, uh, which has been empowering, right? Just to learn how my mind works and then to see how the industry is perfect for me, right? Like hands-on learning, a divide, a diverse array of things to focus on and and challenges each day. Uh it I had to be agile and dynamic, and so was my thinking. So I fit right in. Um and and that's what I love about the industry is like the low barrier of entry. Like, what a beautiful thing this the construction industry is, where people that have come from some challenges, whether it's poverty or maybe they've got interactions with the justice system, maybe they've you know not be treated well as a kid or learning diversity. You can walk in an industry without any post-secondary education in my generation and make a really, really good living.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. And I love that. So it don't you think that that right there is the reason for the the statistics?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, it's the way that's the chili's heal at the same time. It is. It's a double-edged sword.

Redefining Hypermasculinity At Work

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so that's this is what I find really annoying. It's it's that um it's being marked as this industry that has this big problem, and yet it's the industry that saves so many people as well. Totally. So it's like, okay, well, w what are we doing here? There's this kind of adage where, I mean, you know, people can take this with a grain of salt. I'm not saying that in construction you don't use your mind, you do. You're using it in a different way, but you know, this this adage where, well, if you can't go and get work that just uses your mind, go use your hands. Right. Well, you still have to use your mind to use your hands. It's just a different application of that. Yeah. You know, you still you're still the you're still the robot inside doing the thing, right? So um now let's I I found one term connected to your profiles out there. Oh boy. And it's it's a doozy. Okay. Um hypermasculinity.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Can we talk about that? Yeah, we can, because I've got some shifting opinions on it now. Like, but I still see where it comes from.

SPEAKER_01

So what is that, what does that mean? I didn't see a colon description. So give me a give me what this means in your realm.

SPEAKER_03

You know, uh, it was what was taught to me by my father, by his father, in a time that they didn't have to live in. Like, I don't, I'm not living. They they I was brought up in a in an era uh with people that didn't know what the world was gonna look like today, right? And so, and then I went on to job sites where like the apprenticeship is the oldest, most successful form of uh teaching that, or learning that and teaching that any life form has ever seen, right? Yeah. It's also a great way to pass down challenging ideas and concepts from generation to generation. And so when I came into the industry at 19 years old, um you know, it was uh it was the it was really celebrated to put in the overtime. Uh taking days off was really frowned upon. Like you get you kind of get razzed by not only your crew, but yeah, the the people you worked for. Um we didn't uh and and I'm guilty of this too as a superintendent. You don't have to go that far back in my history to hear me saying leave your personal life at the gate, right? Yeah. And so there's this idea, um, and somebody asked me once, rightfully so, who taught you that? And I had to think about it. I'm like the culture of the trades. The culture, and I think it comes from factory workers and a generation of parents that you know believe strongly that you do what you have to do to make money, and and that's it. You don't have to enjoy your job. And then we come into a world where we're being taught like we need to be passionate about things and there's something better out there, right? So it's been it's come been complex, but to answer your question directly, to me, hypermasculinity is this sense that I'm gonna be strong, I'm gonna be like to I'm gonna be strong as in like a pressure cylinder that just contains a lot of pressure. Okay and I'm gonna absorb things because that's the masculine way, that's what men do. I'm not gonna reach out for help. I'm not gonna admit when I'm in over my head. Um I have to be strength without compassion, I have to be strength, uh strong without restraint. I have to put my needs on the back burner to serve, you know, in service of my family, uh, all kinds of stuff. And you know, to be honest, that's what I was demonstrated, I thought in my father. Uh, and my mother would challenge that behind, she would say, Oh, that's my dad at 25. She would say, like, you you didn't see all of your father's experience. Like, when you weren't looking, he did feel all those things.

SPEAKER_01

And but that when you're younger, you don't really notice because they're kind of trying to keep everything.

SPEAKER_03

And that's part of the problem, is I didn't get to see, like, to me, all of what it meant to be a healthy male. I got to see what was presented to me because my father suffered from the same like insecurity of somebody else seeing his emotions that I did, right? Like that I came up to. So to me, hypermascularity is like I'm not gonna I'm gonna serve so hard and work so hard that I'm not gonna take care of myself because I'm tough enough to do that.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Right. Okay, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

Culture Clash Village Vs Hunter

SPEAKER_01

So I think that there's something very complex here. Yes. That is tethered to this. Now um I'll give it to you. No. This is gonna be weird. Just hold with me on this. You're gonna go, where is he going with this? So on the last podcast with the caliber guys with their um foundation's leadership, I was talking to them about um if there was an uh an evolutionary psychologist that I could talk to that would be able to give indicate to me how many generation cycles it would take to actually change change our innate behavior or our our our instincts. Like how how long does it take? Because there is let's go back 200 years. That's not a lot of generations. It's in in in the span of how humans have developed. Yeah. I mean, it seems like a lot to us, but in terms of how long humans have been around, it's not long at all. And you know, we have adaptations of things that we learn along the time and things that we do. But there is the hunter mentality versus the in the village mentality. Okay. So in the past, way back, there would be this masculine thing that would go out and get the kill and defend the hunting grounds for the village. And then there's the village, typically, which is holding the fort and like uh making uh the uh procreating and sustenance and making sure that when the hunt came back it was ready and everyone could thrive and do all of those things. But social media is village behavior. It is not hunter behavior, it is uh emotional warfare, it's it's behavior that is so not hyper-masculine. Because hyper-masculine conflict turns usually into actual physical conflict. It would. But the thing is, is that for instance, cancel culture, there's not gonna be much cancel culture out in the hunting grounds because we all have to come back together. Yeah, otherwise the village is not gonna be happy we left someone out there to be eaten or killed by the other tribe. We have to come back, A with the kill and with all of us. Yeah. Okay. So you take that and then you look at where we are in construction. It is predominantly male. Anybody can argue with that, that's great. But I think we've, I don't want to say celebrate the male, I'm kind of tired of that word. We just have to actually just support men.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Who do men things. And men are not the same men. We we have evolved our niceness, we have evolved our respect, we've uh evolved our um uh uh the way we see the world in terms of females, in terms of rights. We're not, you know, the the people who are jerks out there of the of the yesteryear, they've kind of been, they're being phased out anyway.

SPEAKER_03

It's it's it's a it's a it's something that's I would just I would just add to that that there, yes, we are evolving past that, but the internet has got us stuck in the mud a little bit. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01

That's what I'm saying. It's it's gotta stuck in the mud. People are worried about being canceled for for being tr being truthful and being a matter of fact. Totally. And they're worried about the emotional warfare of being real.

Brotherhood Support And Real Help

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. I agree, man. And and what you're saying is like you you just described something that I described, like I say that, and what I've seen in my career is like we're doing a lot of great things on job sites. The the the the the bro code, the the way we get along uh as guys in the industry is so close to being um a whole like wholesome, like supporting the whole person.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Like I know, uh, and I use this analogy all the time. If if I was in a bar one night uh with my crew and shit went down, we ended up in a back alley. I know every one of them, except maybe that one guy we all know would be under the table, right? But for the most part, we know we'll take it on the chin. We'll we'll get a black guy, broken jaw, supporting the guys next to us. So now when a guy comes to the job site uh and you know he's struggling with his health, you can see it. He's showing up late, he's not himself, you know he's got, you know, he's sharing that he's got some trauma in his relationship, i.e., maybe he's losing his wife, his kids are gonna be out of his life, maybe you know his drinking's out of control. Like, what are we doing now? Because it's life or death. And so I don't I don't really like, I come at it like the industry can do something to change the culture, but I think like what you're saying, as as a as a village, within the confines of those job sites, we need to be supporting each other more. It is.

SPEAKER_01

It's cult, it's culture writ large though. Yes. That's that's that's the problem, is it's seeping in. Yes.

SPEAKER_03

It's seeping in from we used to be insulated from it, right? Like really, and I and I think this is like the same with any lifestyle occupation. So like I see it in police, my daughter is uh, my daughter's a nurse, my sister's a nurse, they see it there. And in construction, like I came into the industry, you know, feeling like this is the place I would I belong. These people understand me. I also felt like nobody, like very proud that not everybody could do this work, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um and so the the backhand of that is that you kind of feel like the world outside the industry doesn't understand you and it's not for you, which limits your ability to connect with it to get the help you need. Right. Right? I know countless guys that have walked into counseling suites to get counseling because somebody finally talked them into it, and they see all the certificates on their wall and they're like, this guy's just gonna judge me, he won't understand. Like we kind of place ourselves in a different place, and that can limit us. But what I see in the industry, the good news is things are changing. Um we do have young people coming into the industry with a different sensibility. Uh they have way more uh understanding of their health. The challenge though that that brings is like they're not, you know, they look at their fathers, their aunts, their uncles, and they don't want to they don't want to have that experience. I they don't want to have their back fused when they're 29 years old. Right. That won't be a badge of honor for them like it was for me.

SPEAKER_01

Well, luckily we do have some technologies coming online that, you know, that like those strength exoskeletons and stuff like that to be able to lift things and do things.

Management Pressure And Identity

SPEAKER_03

Well, and dude, I gotta be clear, man. The industry didn't break my back. I did. Like I didn't I I did backflips off the pool, like no, like it was on site, but like I didn't I wasn't taking care of myself, man. Oh, you're at 29 years old.

SPEAKER_01

You weren't you were trying to do something in a weird way at the I I didn't I didn't take care of myself.

SPEAKER_03

I wasn't eating right. I I would I was just as I worked just as hard at work as I did after hours with the crew at the you know at that wing night. And gotcha. Um I wasn't sleeping well, I wasn't eating well, uh my drug, my drug habits, my substance use was starting to get carried away on me. Like I wasn't taking care of myself. Yeah. Like, and you know, we want to have this separation, like I don't work to live or live to work type thing, but I the the that separation that doesn't exist. Right? And so like when I look at the industry now, like when I look at industry culture, I'm like, and I and then I look at my girlfriend's cousin who lives with us, he's in a hockey academy, and I'm like, I'm seeing parallels, but like like you know, you go there, there's big physical output, these guys got trainers, they got people there to keep them focused, they got people, and you know, the minute something goes wrong, this is just a you know high school or a hockey academy, 18 years old, right? This isn't pro-level shit. But I look at the industry and I'm like, you got a safety person. We're like, what else can we do to change the culture, to add more people to support our crews better? Because I think if you change that culture to shift it towards more of an athletic mindset, you'll see guys starting to adjust to that image of themselves, you know what I mean? And taking care of themselves more. I speak to a lot of young people right now. Biggest piece of advice I give is take care of yourself. Yeah. Like you know you're going into a physical business. That's never gonna change. The industry's never gonna change how hard the work is. Like it's it's just manual physical labor.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so let's just talk it, let's just talk about one thing that I've I've I've found that is kind of complex is the mental health spectrum of up and down the value chain of construction. So let's just say, let's go all the way to sorry for those um site sweepers out there, but let's just say sweeping the site, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, labor.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, general labor sweeping the site to CEO responsible for the project. Okay, they're all in construction. Yeah. Okay. CEO of the GC. Um this person down here, okay. I'm coming in, I need a job, I gotta take what I can get. I banged on a site trailer and I was able to get in there and I got a job. Okay. This person. I got 30 million bucks that I'm responsible for. No. And it's not going well. This person's like, I'm not making enough money. Uh it's not going well. Suddenly I have, I feel I have uh mental health issues. This person, I could say very much to my wife or my other partner, I have mental health, I have stress. No. So these are the two extremes of the value chain of construction. No. When we talk about mental health and construction, how far up the spectrum does it go?

SPEAKER_03

It's everywhere. I know, but everybody. I'll be able to do that. I'll give you two examples, because I've been on both sides of that. I have never owned a company that's responsible for$30 million of jobs. But I've been in superintendent on jobs.

SPEAKER_01

Let's say five million.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01

Those are lots of those.

SPEAKER_03

So I'll tell you, I'll give you. So I the supers are Yeah. They're I'll tell you, as a superintendent, I felt it. Okay. Because I'm not making the budget. I'm not I'm just I'm just the burn rate.

Overwhelm Failure And Coping

SPEAKER_01

But what about the what about the PC and the PM? Yeah. They're not making it either. No. Okay, so they're in they're just the office version of that stress. Yeah. You are the as a superintendent, you are that, or in the states the project engineer. No. You are that frontline person who is responsible for the physical manifestation of everything that happens in the office front of the budget I didn't create.

SPEAKER_03

And the timeline I didn't create.

SPEAKER_01

I know, and and the d also the PMs and PCs are trying to deliver on the deal they didn't make. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. No, exactly. And that's one of the tensions, right? Is like, and we feel it. Don't think that that guy, well, maybe the guy on the broom's a little bit uh oblivious. Um but the guys, you know, the super is pushing on those guys on tools to get the job done. Like he's got to be. Let's move up the chain a little bit. But so, so, but let's just go. So I'm I'm a guy framing slamming walls. My life was great. I loved it. Yeah. I go out on my own, start my own business, blow my back out at 29. So imagine this. I'm in an industry where I felt like I was belonging. I was like, man, this is great. I love this industry for like 10 years. Uh I feel immortal. I feel like this is my jam. Um I'm in my place, 29 years old, backfused. Immediately uh I'm like, oh shit, I have to do this for the rest of my life. Yeah. So pre-back, I'm super proud of how tough I am. And then 29, I'm like, shit, I gotta be this tough forever.

SPEAKER_01

You just nailed something there. Yeah. It is the this is what I have to do from now on. There you go. That's the stress. That is a stress. That's a stress because uh that means that I mean, the other day I I went for a run. I hadn't gone for a run in quite a while. Yeah. And I was for two days, I'm like, oh my god, I can I can barely walk. And then I was thinking, well, what if running was my job? Yeah. What if I couldn't pay my rent if I couldn't run and I feel like this today? That's what it's like. As you as you know.

SPEAKER_03

I've given the exact same analogy in that imagine, and I tell to people that aren't in the trades that have never done this, like the the caloric the caloric, average caloric burn rate per day of an average uh average construction worker can be up to 4,500 calories a day. Crazy. That's marathon level stuff.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's 2,000 above norm, right?

SPEAKER_03

Right. And then you get out of bed and you got to do it. It's not a choice. You didn't run that on a weekend because you want it was a hobby. Like you have to do that every day of the week. So if you have a really tough Tuesday, that week gets super long. Exactly. We can't take the so that is inherently a stress of its own, right? And that can, and so my mental health did shift after I had my back piece. Still love the work, loved the industry, but I felt very vulnerable. Because I'm like, whether I like it or not, I may not be able to do this for the rest of my life, and then what do I do? Now I moved into management, um, into the superintendent things, but I just traded one stress for the other because now I'm responsible. Like I said, the boss is the boss is bidding these jobs, and the low bid process is hell on these guys. You're you're you're you're bidding the job, you're setting the timeline of the budget and passing it off to somebody else and saying, go make it happen. And then I'm now pushing on the guys around me because my ass is on the line every day, and I don't want to be the guy. You're and we say it every day in the business, you're only good only as good as your last job. And so, me, another aspect of my studies, like I had wrapped my entire identity around getting shit done. Yeah. And being the guy that gets the problem jobs done. And so my whole life was problems, other people's problems, the business problems, everything. And I'm just medicating, man. I'm just medicating to stay afloat. And and that inevitably, you know, what happens is you start to see failure. Ultimately, you have to. It's unsustainable, but you blame yourself for it. You're like, I'm a failure, I'm a terrible person, I've been like getting lucky all these years. Uh, I'm gonna find a one-way ticket out of the industry that I don't want because people are gonna find out my secret, and now I'm gonna be living in my mom's basement for the rest of my life with no other occupation. Jeez, okay. So this it's just a tremendous amount of stress.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so so this is the this is the life situation stress. Right. Okay, so let me ask you this.

Athletic Model For Job Sites

SPEAKER_03

And and I'm at and and I am I am more responsible for what I went through than the construction industry is. No, no, I get that. Because I had to, and I could say because they're really very clear, there are ways to cope, there are ways to do this in a healthier way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I know that. But I mean, everybody okay, the relationship with your career is the same relationship you have with a significant other relationship. And when you're in one that at the time doesn't feel sustainable, it feels required at the same time. So I don't know, if you've been in a relationship with uh with a girl, for instance, and it's like when you're younger and you think, oh my god, there's no way I could live without that person or whatever, and that toxic BS that goes on. It's that with your career. So you're thinking, oh, but when you actually do get the courage to say, you know what, I don't need this anymore, and have some self-esteem, and you're like, I'm gonna just gonna there's something better for me, you look back and you go, Why did I spend so much time with that person? Yeah. So there's the thing going on. But the thing is with a with a job, it's more difficult because the office is something that could technically be the escape, right? Like if you're if you're physically in pain and you're like, I like construction, but I uh my yeah, like I my body needs a warranty. Like I don't know if I can my parts are gonna last that long. My next option is to use this uh uh depth of knowledge I have and apply that to, let's say, the office. And they go, well, I don't want to be in an office all the time. I love being out. I like being in my truck, I like driving from I like the fact that the terrain changes, the projects are new, it's good for my mind that I can start and finish something and move on. I don't want to be staring at a screen all day. No. And that's really what PMs and PCs do. They're on the phone and on the screen.

SPEAKER_03

I did the PM thing for a little while and I came back to superintendent, man. That's my jam. I like it.

SPEAKER_01

I got you, but but but when we think about what that means, because if we if we focus back to mental health, right? Where we get completely overwhelmed is when our attention, which can hold anywhere between five and seven things, depending on our aptitude, at once. So right now, we're thinking here we're we're we've probably got a number of things in our attention right now. We've got some senses going on, we have you're trying to concentrate on this conversation just like I am. No. We probably have another couple of things. It might be like the ferry on the way back, or I mean but if there's big ones, you can't you're just constantly overwhelmed. And that one that my time, I don't know if I'm doing the right thing for my time, that equals my life, my future. What am I doing? I need this to survive, where does this end? No. That's gonna take up too many spots. Yeah. And then people are just not happy.

SPEAKER_03

I'll nuance it a little a little more. I will say my for me, overwhelm is directly related to uh my sense of how close failure is.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

Mental Health Across The Ladder

SPEAKER_03

If I'm operating and I've got a million things going on at once, um, but failure appears to be like things are going fairly well, there's some challenges, it's okay, but failure is failure is far away. I'm good with that, man. Like I'm I've I'm surprisingly very productive. But when something snowballs or catches you, pulls you out of some of those other things, and now I have a sense, and again, this is filtered through six years of counseling and intense therapy, when that sense of failure starts getting like close to me, that's where I start feeling like, oh shit, there's significant consequences to me dropping balls right now. Right. Right? So, and my counsel would say, if you're gonna juggle balls, you gotta be prepared to juggle to drop a couple. Like that's you can't hate yourself for it. Right. You gotta, and so But what if your identity is around being a juggler? There you go. Then you're in trouble. Exactly. And the guy that gets things done. And this is the work that I'd like to see guys doing, right? And I would like to see the industry start promoting people that have that like a better sensibility around leadership, uh, who can manage their mental health a bit more. Um I don't think the industry's gonna change overnight. I think it will over time. I think it's in transition right now, actually. I think we're kind of my my opinion is things are changing for sure. It's how many people are we gonna lose along the way? Okay. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um so I've got a couple of minutes left, and I want to ask you a big question. Sure. Um, what do you think of the paradigm of this idea of AI and people and and these AI leaders saying that at some point we're not gonna need to work and this first it was AI 2027 that was gonna be happening, and that's been pushed forward. But do you feel there's this downward pressure on everybody that this is gonna be something that we can't even imagine or wrap our head around that's scary to people and it's making people feel heavy?

SPEAKER_03

I think every every technology, every new technology is a double-edged sword, man. It's it's gonna be how it's used and how it's applied, and how we, you know, I mean, we kind of have people running roughshot with very powerful technologies right now. But I think it's gonna be a valuable tool. I think it's a necessary tool to learn, uh, whether you like it or not, it's here. Yeah. Um I think that the manual labor jobs are gonna be safer longer than than the rest of them.

SPEAKER_02

That's true.

SPEAKER_03

But I don't think I don't think people are gonna lose work. I think the work's gonna change. I think fundamentally, I think one of the opportunities you're gonna see people need way less uh post-secondary education to fill job spaces that ordinarily would demand that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a good point, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's a good thing, right? Yeah, I mean But think of the robots. Robots are cool, man. I've always loved robots.

SPEAKER_01

Like the humanoids. Like, do you think you're gonna see at some point like on the job site, your uh one sub trait shows up and it's it's let's say in the beginning it's 10% of their workforce. You're like, whoop, there's one of those things.

SPEAKER_03

Right. I don't know, can I kick it when I'm ha unhappy with it? Can I push it down a flight of stairs?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's I think it's gonna be treated like a human. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_01

It's weird though, huh?

SPEAKER_03

It's super weird.

SPEAKER_01

But I look at it like you know I'm not advocating, I'm just saying, like I watch these videos of how far they're coming pretty quick. I'm just thinking it works. Once it gets the hands right, because the hands are apparently the most difficult thing, the hand dexterity.

SPEAKER_03

Opposable thumbs, man. That's that's what separates us from the beasts, right? Prefront prefrontal cortex and opposable thumbs.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's why we got to where we're at. So I um I think robots are cool. I think they're gonna, if they're gonna come onto job sites, they're probably not gonna be treated well uh unless they're all of the job site. Um That's a good point, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But I don't think it will be a backlash if there's if there's just so much like here's the weird thing is that when there is a let's say it's a a sweeping robot, okay? Let's say it's just a humanoid that you give them the burn. Totally. And um the sweeping program can be just given to another one just like that. There's no training required. And that's the weird part, is that it will be zero um you won't need there to be an apprenticeship for a robot. It's just the program will be sent over.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. But you you lose out on a valuable first step onto a job site for an actual human.

SPEAKER_01

I know.

AI Robots And The Future Of Work

SPEAKER_03

That's the problem. That's what I do with guys that are. I just don't know where this is all going. I well, no, nobody does. That's the problem. There's guys that claim to be with billions of dollars, and I don't trust them at all, right? Like, uh we're not making the decisions right now. We aren't. Me and you, guys like me and you, I it's it's these megalomaniac billionaires. And my attitude is like, I'm not here for long, man. I gotta enjoy the rest of my life, so I can only get so up in arms about it. Yeah. Um, it's honestly my grandkids that are gonna probably have to deal with a lot of this shit. Uh I want to do my part around climate, the things I can control, like do my part. But um, yeah, the robots, man, I f I only have so many battles left in me. I gotcha, I gotcha. If I can get the my goal is if I can get the guys around me a little healthier in the industry, get them feeling so more supported, bring down that suicide rate, get some of these guys asking for help before they die of an overdose. Um, you know, that's that's kind of my life work. But uh Well, it's a very important thing you're doing. I, you know, I I I went through it myself, uh, and when I got my head clear and got a little bit of counseling and some tools under my belt uh to deal with my mental health, I could clearly see like I was not at all unique. I was not alone. Uh there's obviously we're seeing the statistics. I don't think I don't slight the industry for it. Like I don't, man, I love the industry. I love the opportunities it gave me. I dug myself some big holes. So um, but the industry uh did make me hide it longer than I needed to.

SPEAKER_01

Everybody digs holes. Yeah, dude. It's just how out in the open they are. Yeah. But yeah, this is cool. All right, well, um, so people can find you on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn. Trevor Bodkin also got a website up called Muster Point Canada, which is under construction. Well, the website's up. The project will we'll be building that with a couple of other partners. I can't announce until maybe tomorrow or next week. Um, but we'll be deploying that. It's a national peer support. So it's taking guys like myself uh who have like been through this shit. It's uh very familiar places. Uh they have some recovery. We're teaching them how to connect with other guys and just lead them to a better place, whatever that looks like for them, man.

SPEAKER_01

I've got a I've got a connection for you for a guy that is a little bit younger. Okay. Um, but same story in Arizona, I should connect to you. Nice. I would love to. He's a really, really good dude. Yeah. Um trying to do the same things you're doing. And I think that network of people who have influence like you do. So I would love that. Uh I on behalf of everyone uh here and also at BuildX, thank you for doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you.

unknown

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

We joining a panel here at uh 1 p.m. Uh up in one of the rooms, and it basically same conversation with BCIT and some other uh people from in and around the industry about what the future of the trades looks like and and how we can get people because we need we need more people, uh we need them to stay longer. Uh we can't have a 50% dropout rate uh at year two of their apprenticeship, right? Like we need to the industry needs to kind of be looking at how do we attract and retain people. And I and I think along the way we need to to to lead some guys just to a better situation where they have more contentedness and and less overwhelm and all that stuff. And man, I don't want to lose any more guys.

Closing And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_01

Right on, buddy. Okay, thanks, James. Thanks, well, that does it for another episode of The Site Fitness. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. You can also sign up for our monthly newsletter at SiteMacSystems.com slash the site fit, where you'll get industry insights, protests, and everything you need to know about the Site Fitz Podcast and the SiteFitz, the job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and beyond. SiteMax is also the engine that powers this podcast. All right, let's get back to Go.