The SiteVisit

ADHD On The Jobsite with Skye Waterson

• James Faulkner • Season 6 • Episode 182

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We explore how ADHD shows up on jobsites and in leadership, why admin feels harder than building, and how to design simple systems that create focus without brute force. We share tactics for working memory, notification overload, and consistent growth that fit ADHD brains.

• what ADHD looks like across life, not just school
• inattentive, hyperactive, and combined types clarified
• why phones hijack attention when tasks feel boring or confusing
• the working memory gap on forms, photos, and compliance
• construction admin friction versus hands-on work
• urgency filters and needle movers to reclaim focus
• using a gatekeeper for Slack and email noise
• visual workflows and weekly meetings for accountability
• sleep and exercise as force multipliers for symptoms
• shifting from self-criticism to system design

Listen to our podcast, the ADHD Skills Lab, or message us at unconventional organization on Instagram with the word “James” for the focus chatbot


PODCAST INFO:
the Site Visit Website: https://www.sitemaxsystems.com/podcast
the Site Visit on Buzzsprout: https://thesitevisit.buzzsprout.com/269424
the Site Visit on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-site-visit/id1456494446
the Site Visit on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5cp4qJE5ExZmO3EwldN1HH

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SPEAKER_01:

Sky Waters and hello. How are you?

SPEAKER_04:

Hi, good to be here.

SPEAKER_01:

So all the way from New Zealand. What time is it there right now?

SPEAKER_04:

It is eight o'clock tomorrow morning.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, so yeah, not far off. We're just like four hours off. I'm just ahead but behind.

SPEAKER_03:

Ahead yet behind. Yeah, it's actually not too bad. It's uh pretty good timing.

SPEAKER_01:

So um we we've got to uh have this opportunity to chat with each other based on uh some of the things in terms of there's there's some uh areas of interest where we we look at the construction industry and the sort of epidemic of ADHD um and how that affects people and their work. It's not just entrepreneurs, it's also people on the job site, too. Having to focus on specific things, very, very difficult to do. Um so yeah, we're gonna get into that with you and your organization called the Unconventional Organization, which is very cool. I did look a little bit about your ADHD skills lab, which is kind of interesting. I didn't give to look deep into that, but I kind of understand where you're going with that. Um, I'm very uh very interested in this topic. Uh I think it's um something that uh you hear a lot of these days. So yeah, I I'm really excited to chat with you.

SPEAKER_04:

Wonderful. Oh, I'm happy to answer any questions.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, we like the exotic accent too. It's very cool. Usually this is just going around to Canada and the United States. So I've had a few people from England, a few people from Australia. It's kind of cool. So, all right, well, let's get started.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the site visit on leadership and construction host in the middle.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so let's uh let's just chat about ADHD for a minute. Can you can we just like get to the baseline of how this is diagnosed, whether or not somebody's just distracted with life in general, or whether or not they actually have this uh affliction?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. So so basically, if you have ADHD, it's struggles with impulsivity, executive functioning. Um, so you know, a lot of people who get really distracted struggle with uh time blindness or working memory, things like that, driven by a motor is a thing you see when you're getting diagnosed using the DSM. And the real thing that we're looking for is that it's persistent and pervasive. So it's not just on Friday afternoons, it's happening all across the week, all across different areas of your life, across time. It might have, you know, it's been happening since you were a kid. That's what people are generally looking for. And in terms of diagnosis, to get diagnosed, you have to go and see a professional and you know, fill out a form, and they've got some other ways that they can do it. It differs depending on the country. Um, but I will say I work more and more now with people who aren't diagnosed, who just resonate with the symptoms. And maybe going down that path is not for them, but they just know that this is a struggle that they need help with.

SPEAKER_01:

Like they just know something is off.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, they you they listen to a podcast or they learn about the symptoms and they say, okay, well, I'm distracted a lot of the time. A lot of this resonates with me. The systems, the neuro, you know, normal systems haven't been working for ages. So I really want to use something that feels like it might be more my speed. And so, you know, I work with a lot of people in trades, uh, in Aussie, we call them tradies. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, people who are in that, um, in that zone and and don't necessarily have an official diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01:

I see. So what is the um distinction between um a the old school ADD and ADHD? I know the ones is is hyper, I think. Is that the hyper?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. So it's it's called type one and type two now. So you get primarily inattentive, which is the ADD, looking out the window, you know, not paying attention to class, that kind of thing. And then you get the primarily hyperactive, which is driven by a motor, can't sit still, you know, interrupting all the time, that kind of thing. Or you get the combined type. I'm the combined type for anyone who's interested.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's it. That is when I was reading your story, um, you discovered that you feel this way. You have this thing. Um, how did you discover that? That what was what manifested that for you that you thought, geez, something's really I got it.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, so I've I've got an interesting journey. I um have been a business owner now for for many years, but before that I was an academic and I went through, you know, did my master's. I was very classic, like just work harder. So everything I did, you know, working two jobs, um, you know, finishing my masters, just piling more and more on. And it got to the point where I just could not handle it. And I actually, you know, finished my master's. I got told I had a scholarship for my PhD and I just quit. I went and worked at a bakery as a cashier for a year and was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I can't do this anymore. And it was only when I went back to university um a year later and said, okay, you know, so is there something wrong? And like went to their place and they, you know, did a bunch of tests on me that they said, okay, we think you have ADHD. And that's when I realized, okay, it's I'm not just broken. The systems that I'm using don't fit my brain. And I was able to go back into the research and and look at systems that were gonna work better for me.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Now, um, I think I've got some friends that their kids, you know, have this diagnosis and they have medication for that. I mean, is that a thing?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, you can you can get medication and it's different for everyone. Like the kinds of medication you can get are different in different countries. Um, some people take medication and they're like, they're good, they're done, that's awesome. Some people um it's more of a journey. Um, so it really does depend.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So has this um epidemic? Let's just call it that, because you hear about it all the time. Is this a new thing? Or is it just we've been able to identify it uh in the past 20 years? Because when I was a kid, it's definitely you didn't hear much about this. So is it because of the discovery that we're hearing it now, or was it always there? We just didn't know what it was.

SPEAKER_04:

It's a good question. It's definitely not a new thing. Um, it's something that we've had around, although I will say some, you know, you know, the idea of ADHD coaching, for example, really only happened around the 90s. So it's been there, you know, it was called different things at different times, uh, but it's always been there, especially in in boys. It was more commonly identified because generally speaking, um, they were more disruptive to classrooms, which is where you sort of noticed it. There was for a while a sense that this was something that you grew out of and it didn't affect you in adulthood. And now there's more acknowledgement that actually it is affecting people in adulthood as well. And one of the reasons that it became so well known, I mean, there's there's many reasons, but for a lot of people, going through COVID was a real wake-up call to realizing, you know, it was sort of the the thing where everybody's routines changed really dramatically. And for the people who that is difficult for, um, it became more of a noticeable, like, oh, this is actually really hard. Or occasionally for some people, they were like, oh, not having to go into work is really good. And and it just it was a time when everyone started realizing that there were different ways of working and different ways of doing things and and that kind of thing. And there is some conversation that social media has also helped because it's become uh an avenue for people like in many different um spheres of life, people have been able to share and talk more about you know, more niche situations, such as experiencing ADHD.

SPEAKER_01:

Would you say that the mobile phone is an accelerator of ADHD? Providing this thing that someone you can like hop onto something else because it is the switching of attention often awesome uh often. So and I uh sometimes I find this okay, and so I'll just give you an example of something that I've noticed in my own behavior. I have a task in front of me, I've gotta sit down and I've got to do it. I start to get into it, and when it kind of gets cognitively difficult, like I really have to have some real thought going into there. I pick up my phone and I check social media.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Like, what is that? Is that ADHD?

SPEAKER_04:

Well, if it was ADHD, I couldn't tell you specifically for you. But when I see people who have ADHD going through this experience, what tends to happen is it's one of three things. It's too boring. This task is, you know, we have a bit more of a dopamine deficit around tasks, and so it hits that like boring space for us. Yeah. Um, which is obviously a gross uh generalization of how the brain works in neuroscience, but go with me on that one. And then, you know, it could also be a working memory struggle. So sometimes what happens is actually you sit down to do a task, and because you didn't break down the steps of the tasks, and one of the things we can struggle with with ADHD is working memory and breaking things down. Your brain just goes, This is too confusing. I don't want to do this because I don't understand how to do it. And so that can switch you into going on social media. Um, or it can be something around this is emotionally vulnerable, which affects everybody, but it can affect people with ADHD uh significantly in terms of like, I don't want to deal with the emotions of this. Um, and so that can also switch you over. So there's three main things that can do it. And generally speaking, when I work with clients, we have a step into focus routine. I take you through how to stay in the zone. Um, but you're right, having distractions like social media. It's not like we never had distractions. You know, one of the things I often recommend people buy is those retro games. You know, you throw a little ball into a hoop in your office and things like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

We we always found ways to distract ourselves, but it is more designed now specifically to take your attention. And that is a problem not just for people who have ADHD, but just for people in general. Um, and you know, looking for ways to remove that. But also sometimes we're understimulated. This happens to people a lot, where people will say, Oh, I'm overstimulated because I'm on my phone all the time. But actually, when you think about your five senses, like, yes, you're looking at your phone, you're scrolling through your phone, but you know, you're also in a super boring office, you never go for a walk, you never do anything fun, you know, like there's a lot of other things that we can do to increase our stimulation in other ways.

SPEAKER_01:

Hmm. Very, very interesting. Um so in terms of the let's let's just sort of look at it when it comes to like the construction site, for instance. If somebody is a you know, a general labor site worker or they're they're a tradee, as you you tradey? Is that what you said? So let's say an electrical contractor, they know exactly the things they have to do. Everything's laid out in front of them. You know, the they've got XYZ panel, they gotta go rewire. I mean, it's pretty cut and dry. There's no inventing going on, but it's just a matter of them getting through their day and being able to focus and do one task after another. Is that typically where the ADHD comes in where they can't focus on that for a long period of time? Can they not get started? What's the how does it manifest itself typically?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it's an interesting question. So I work with a lot of um business owners in trades. And one of the things I often hear is they want to get off the tools, but they don't want to get on the admin, if that makes sense. So they they're in a position where they're sort of saying, okay, I can I can go to work and I can work. Like give me a job, give me a thing to build, I can do that piece. What tends to be a problem is when we have to add in admin tasks. You know, you have to take a photo of the job site by three o'clock every day. You have to make sure that you've, you know, cleaned up bits of the site. You have you have to fill out forms or do equipment. And that only gets harder and harder when you actually start running your own thing. Because now you have to do the quotes, you have to do all of that kind of stuff as well. So generally, where we see the problem, it's not people doing the task on the job side, it's it's the other admin pieces that are the ones that are getting lost.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know if you've you you noticed, but the company that I founded, Site Max, our our company is a platform for the site. So it's the mobile app for your time, for your photos. I mean, you talked about and forms. Yeah. And uh so yeah, you're absolutely right. There is that uh uptake there of the attention. You know, I always say that you know, the the men and women out there on the on the uh on the job site just want to build Lego. That's what they that's why they started. They didn't do it because they wanted to fill out forms or move equipment around or all that kind of stuff. So exactly. Um and so does that does that lend itself to the part that is cognitively not satisfying slash boring to them?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah. Cognitively not boring. There's a couple of reasons that people struggle with this if you have ADHD. One is you just forget. Like genuinely, no matter what, even though it's like at 3:30, you're supposed to fill out the forms, et cetera, et cetera. People just forget. Working memory can be difficult. The other one is it's boring, you know, that I'll do it later, I'll do it later. Oh, I have to go home, you know, and now it's it's done. And and the other one is just sometimes it's confusing. Like people do not necessarily, especially, you know, on job sites, people will give people jobs that aren't always, you know, it's an interesting one because like I said, I work with business owners who run job sites as well, right? So it's like, are you delegating effectively? Does the person actually know this, or did you just hand them an application in a phone and say do thing? And then they're like, okay, cool, but like which buttons do I press? Like a lot of people don't have that experience, and so they're sort of going, okay, if I I clicked on this thing and it said I had to do this, and then there was another button. I don't know, and I don't want to ask because I already got told to do this job, and so I'm just not gonna do it. So sometimes that will happen as well. Is that the working memory piece comes in?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So would you say the working memory if you if you're to take the brain like a computer, working memory is like the RAM? Like there's not enough RAM like to run a bunch of programs.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So random access memory. Yeah. So like for instance, like the long-term memory with ADHD. Sorry. Long-term, okay. So I would look at like the hard drive as the long-term memory. It's like stuff you gotta go and find later that you saved somewhere. And you know, you can you can recall that into the attention. But the rant the random access memory is like the stuff that we need to run our programs in our brain, like right now. So, in other words, yes, like I'm on the job site, I've just finished the task, you know, rewiring an electrical box, but now I've got to take the photo of it, I've got to fill out the compliance form after. That's the stuff that I'm still thinking about the electrical box. So I can only have so many things in my attention at one time. Was it five to seven things? I think is the is the like you can't have any more than that. And some of the other pieces that are in there could be um like my mortgage renewal is coming up, or you know, I've got a someone's birthday thing I gotta go to, I gotta buy them a gift, like all these other life things are going on in there. So those other spots are competing for each other for importance. So does the ADHD um make it really difficult for those other spots to sort of find their importance and priority level?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, kind of. It's like this idea of you know, our long-term memory can be good. We can remember how to wire electrical boxes, we've done it a million times before, that kind of thing. But the the thing that James said on the site today, that's already gone. Like we forgot that the second that James walked out of the room.

SPEAKER_01:

But the short-term mm-hmm, you know, out of the room. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, the short-term memory. So that's usually what we're losing. And actually, you know, to your point, and I do have a uh an AI bot you can use for this. Um, you so you could just do it on your phone. But if you message me on um at unconventional organization, you can just message me, James, actually, and I'll I'll give it to you. It takes you through how to do this, how to like take these tasks out of your brain and put them somewhere and organize them and sort them, because this is such a fundamental struggle with ADHD. And it's something that we often, yeah, you're right. We have the mortgage in our head, we have the thing that, you know, maybe someone's wife said to them as they were walking out the door, don't forget, blah, blah, blah. And then you get on the job site and they say, Don't forget, X, Y, Z. And we just people are just losing that, especially when they struggle with ADHD.

SPEAKER_01:

So, you know, the advent of applications and having the compliance side of things be, you know, democratized, if you will, or like taken away from one person that was responsible for something. Like in in the old days, you would come in, you'd punch a time card, or you would like somebody would check you in and then you would just go get to do your Lego, and you didn't have to touch a piece of paper or fill out a form or do anything for a long time.

SPEAKER_04:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Until you left. But now it's as you said, here, here's the app, now you do it. You do your stuff. Now you're responsible for your stuff. Single point of truth, you're the one. Okay, great. Um that's obviously confused people a lot in terms of like I think when if you think of the structure of like high school, for instance, you know, a lot of boys go in there and it's just not designed for them. It's not. They're like totally somewhere else. They're in a completely different cognitive growth phase of their body. They're just like somewhere else. So that you know, I think that that's the main reason why they say, you know, like uh heavy cannabis use before 21 is a big problem because of the development of the brain is not you know not there yet until that age with young men. Um so do you think that perhaps the the when an individual goes into the trades, they feel like they've kind of gotten rid of this structured high school thing that it you know, they don't didn't go to university, didn't go to college, they maybe went to trade school or something, and they're like, okay, well, at least I'm in doing the thing that I like doing. And then they get given the admin part where they're like, that's feels like that thing again. It feels like the homework, it feels like the teacher feels like that hierarchy that that made them upset and and and triggered them to be able to not concentrate. Do you think that that's there's an element to that in terms of even minus the ADHD part? That just makes it worse.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, 100%. And and and it's it's actually kind of plus the ADHD part because one of the things we know is that when you grow up and you have a brain that does things differently, like with ADHD, you get a lot more criticism, even from nice people. They're like, hey, you're doing it wrong. Hey, you're not doing it this way, you should do it that way. And that gets turned into, when you look at the research, it gets turned into self-criticism. So not only are you coming to this job site expecting it to be more, I'm just gonna get to build and that's what I'm doing. But then when there's all the admin stuff and you're failing at it, then there's an extra layer of self-criticism that people can, you know, work with in all kinds of different ways, especially if they don't realize like, hey, my brain's just different. I just need systems that are gonna work for me. The guy giving me these instructions doesn't have that kind of brain and therefore doesn't understand that.

SPEAKER_01:

So um so when we when you were saying that this isn't something new, which is fine, did we get clarity on that? Do you think it's the diagnosis that is new? And it's just always been there. Or is it worse than that?

SPEAKER_04:

I think it's the social media. It's the social media that is new. It's the way we're we're getting information about everything and therefore getting information about ADHD. It used to be that you know you wouldn't find out about it unless it was in the news, or unless somebody's kid got it, or you maybe you got told by a professional that you had it. But because we have social media now, all of these kinds of more niche things are something that people are just more aware of in general.

SPEAKER_01:

I do remember, like I was in high school in the 80s. So I mean, I remember there was one guy that had to take this ADD medication. I'm like, what do you have to take that for? He's like, oh, I don't know, it's kind of like can't concentrate, so I gotta take this stuff. I'm like, oh, okay. But there wasn't it wasn't a lot, and it was only a couple of people um in the school that I from what I can remember. But now it seems like two in five are like on this stuff.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Well, you think about stuff like depression, right? It's kind of a similar thing. But like back in the day, you know, how many kids did you know in high school who'd be like, I struggle with anxiety, I struggle with depression. And now people talk about it all the time. People talk about it on the job sites more than they used to as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they do. I mean also I mean there's a cultural element to that as well. I mean, like what is considered um it used to be the life is hard part. No, I'm always interested in that. Like the where do we where do we draw the line on the life is hard part to we have now an affliction? So I mean, you know, everybody goes through things, life is about um, you know, I mean it used to be the we're totally getting off base here, but it I think there's some disagreements to what I'm gonna say here is that you know there used to be a time when you would go and ask, you know, someone on a date and you would get rejected 20 times and that's what made you who you are. But now you're like, oh, I got rejected a couple of times, now I'm depressed. It's like, well, come on, gotta get over it. So there's there are there are some there are some cultural things that I would agree I would agree on that side. Um, but the the I have a feeling that the uh and some of the other podcasts that I have listened to about ADHD is that the phone has really hurt. Um it has made this worse in terms of attention. Um and secondly, um do you have anything, any comments on the diet in terms of sugar, uh dopamine hits, all of that stuff? How does that dovetail it here?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, the first thing I'll say is, you know, in terms of, you know, with ADHD specifically, one of the great things about it is if you think you struggle with it, there's a lot of strategies to help you out, and then you're good. You know what I mean? You're not good, you're still you, and obviously there's things to do, but there's a lot of ways to fix the problem that you have, which is one of the reasons why it's it's kind of probably taken off because it is, it has those systems and strategies. In terms of the diet, you know, I don't necessarily go into diet outside of just eating healthy, you know, unprocessed, good food is good for you, that kind of stuff. But when it comes to exercise, one of the things that we see, you know, there's a paper that came out recently, which is like a randomized control trial mineral. It was like one of the best kind of papers you can do, like as close to, you know, this is the answer as we can do in academia. And they found that exercise, you know, even just moderate exercise regularly had a huge effect on ADHD symptoms, emotional dysregulation, anxiety, things that can sometimes go along with ADHD. And that was really, really helpful. So for me personally, what I often ask people is like, how often are you moving your body? Obviously, if you're on the job site, that's easy. But if you're driving and you're doing a lot of admin, like you might be doing less than you think as well.

SPEAKER_01:

So is the is the insulin spike um an issue?

SPEAKER_04:

That's out of my purview. You'd have to talk to there are there are ADHD specific nutritionists who could talk to all of that stuff, and that's that's not something that I that I cover.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um The reason I asked that is because you know, when when you're involved in a job where there's limited food uh options, you know, around a job. So it could be a remote job site, it could be a new development where you gotta go drive for 20 minutes to go get anything to eat. And even then it's gonna be empty-caloried, kind of high insulin uh carbohydrate spiking kind of stuff that's like not good for you mentally. And if this is making like let's say there's the ADHD baseline, and then there is you layer this on top, and it's basically like a like fuel on the fire. Um I don't know, it's definitely a factor.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, anything that's bad for you is probably gonna be bad for your ADHD. Like it you are in your body. So one of the things we know, for example, is that if you're not getting enough sleep, then you can experience symptoms that are similar to ADHD. If you already have ADHD, that's gonna make it way worse. So, generally speaking, the same things apply. You know, healthy body, healthy mind, getting exercise, eating healthy, getting sleep. These fundamental building blocks of just anybody are gonna also be fundamental for ADHD. You don't get to like get away with it because you have ADHD or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. No, that's fair enough. Um let's chat a little bit about like the spectrums of everything has an a spectrum. So what is somebody with is there an acute ADHD? Like something that's just almost it's almost debilitating versus like somebody's kind of like, yeah, I just can't concentrate.

SPEAKER_04:

That's a good question. Like there is there are conversations, you know, when you talk about diagnoses, you can get you know higher and lower, you know, numbers sometimes for you.

SPEAKER_01:

Is there a grading system?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh not really. Like there is a conversation in some research articles you'll see about subclinical ADHD. So, you know, subclinical symptoms that don't quite meet the threshold, but still indicate that you know you might be struggling. But generally speaking, you know, if someone says they have ADHD, they won't then tell you a number. They'll be like, I have it or I don't have it. You know, even if maybe when they did it, they were like, oh, I scored quite high on these areas. Like I really do struggle with inattention a lot. Um, it doesn't come up in any particular way.

SPEAKER_01:

Interesting. Because I like I've had some people say to me that no XYZ person has severe ADHD. So I'm like, okay, is that like so is this binary?

SPEAKER_04:

You just have it or you don't, or is there like a doesn't it would be hard to know what they what they did. I mean, I've I've heard people say they have severe ADHD and they never even got the diagnosis. So it sometimes it's just a phrase that people use um rather than any particular information.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. I'll let that one go then. But I'm I think also because it's similar to like, you know, with like autism. There's mild autism and then there's like people who can't function, you know? Um but uh so what is what cause what is the I know you said you should uh you're not a nutritionist. Um do you have any kind of information on what causes ADHD? Like what is the thing?

SPEAKER_04:

Is it that one interesting? So yeah, I would say like, okay, first of all, I do not have information on what causes ADHD. If I did, I would be famous. Does no one people are trying to figure it out? Um they know it's genetic. That's the thing that people really know. So it's a genetic they know that it is highly so if you have it, if you a lot of times people will find out they have it because their kids got diagnosed with it. That's something that happens more now as we go through it. Um or if People might realize, oh, a woman can have it, it looks slightly different. And and so mums will get diagnosed with it when their kids are diagnosed. So that happens a lot. It's it's very genetic. Um but in terms of what causes it, I mean there's a lot of different theories, um, but there's no there's no real solid understanding.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Um so let's talk a little bit about um your organization and then how you're helping people. Um so is give us let's say I come to you, I've I've done this test, and I now I say, okay, I have ADHD, I run SiteMax, um, I got a lot on my plate. And you say to me, Well, James, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna get your list and we're gonna get this 80-20 rule. We're gonna we're gonna give you this strategy to be able to, is it make sense so that you're not so overwhelmed, or what is it? Like what what is it that that that you really help people with?

SPEAKER_04:

So what I do is I take my knowledge of of neuroscience and how the brain works and how ADHD works and research, and I turn I've turned that over over a period of years into systems and strategies that allow business owners who have ADHD symptoms to experience focus balanced growth. And we do that by helping you get focused, helping you get your time back, and helping you stay consistent with your revenue because we all have those good months and those bad months, and we want to stay consistent and really looking at how to rebuild systems that you might already be doing in ways that work for your brain. So, for example, your, you know, yes, I've done lists before, but you've never really understood. Well, have you done lists in ways that support working memory that help you when you're super, you know, bored and you don't want to open things. And so they're really easy to do. Like, have you learned how to focus? So it's not a hundred tips, it's about six different systems that I teach that then become kind of ingrained in your brain. A lot of people say once they learn them, they're like, you're in my head, which I take as a compliment. And um, and then we help you build that up and also help you build that up when you are a business owner with a team, because you are not just um you if you've got ADHD symptoms, it's not just affecting you personally, it's also affecting you in terms of how you lead and how you be a boss. And a lot of people don't know that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep, I can attest to that for sure. Um so when you have so let's say you have the the list, for instance, and you can jump in at any point here. So let's say I have a list of the things I want to do, but I also have these overarching massive things that are like these are macro things, and then I've got like the micro, like I don't know, daily stuff I gotta get done. Um what it sometimes feels like is is you have the accomplishment of having your list and you check those off, but you still didn't get to these big things.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, a hundred percent. But that's really a lot, actually.

SPEAKER_01:

That's really tough to deal with because you feel kind of accomplished, but then again, you're like, ah, still there's that thing.

SPEAKER_04:

One of the things I say to business owners all the time is that your job is not to finish your task list. You think your job is to finish your task list because you see other people complete their task list. I'm here to tell you their task list is not as long as yours. If you're ADHD, you're a diversion thinker, you've got a whole bunch of things that you want to do. So, what we want to really focus on for you is, and this is separate from habits, habits have its own thing. We're just talking about tasks here. We want to get you to write down your tasks so we don't forget them, working memory. We want you to have a look at them and we want to say, okay, what has to be done in the next 24 hours, or there'll be a significant negative consequence. And if you need help with that, you could think about if your day went sideways, you ended up in a waiting room and this was your day. Yeah, what would you still do on your phone? What would you call someone to say, I can't be prepped for tomorrow, so I'm not gonna be able to come? That's the urgent stuff. Everything else, it doesn't have to be done today. And I've worked with so many business owners who come in and they swear they have 200 tasks, but when they do this exercise, most people don't have more than five. That creates space in your day to then go, what are my needle movers? What is my 20% that's gonna give me that 80% return?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And then how do you handle the upmanaging of people putting tasks in your inbox?

SPEAKER_04:

That is a great question. Number one, it all goes in the filter. The amount of people uh inboxes can be a great dopamine booster. People will just, you know, look at it and you know, put it back on on read and never really respond. So, what you want to do is you want to say, okay, this is this is my email for you know, and if you can get an assistant to do your email, that's amazing. Do that. We talk about that, but let's have a look at the tasks that are actually coming from your email. Put it in the same filter. Does it have to be done in the next 24 hours or something really bad will happen? Like if it doesn't fit that criteria, it doesn't mean you can't do it today, but you it's not urgent. Like we often we're pretending things are urgent. We're saying, well, I'd like it to be urgent because if it was urgent, then maybe I'd have the motivation to do it. But your brain's not stupid, it knows.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So I would think other construction owners are obviously using multiple pieces of software, they're using communication tools. Um, everything has a notification on it, and you're just getting inundated with hey, I need your attention right now, regardless of whether or not you have decided or determined whether that that particular piece, task, or motion is a priority or not. You are constantly getting these things. It's like, oh I'll give you an example. So um, you know, we use Slack at SiteMax, and I have so many Slack channels, and now I have our accounting is now has their own Slack channel. I've got and I've got third parties now. Oh, are you on Slack? Oh now we can be on that. I can't, I can't see it all. Like I can't, I could sit there honestly all day and just be on Slack. But that's not an existence. I mean, I can't I can't do the macro stuff if that's what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I hear this a lot, and this is kind of where it comes into what we said about you people don't understand that they are leading in a way that doesn't fit their ADHD as well. Because maybe some people can handle that number of notifications, but for us, no, we need it to be off. So, number one thing I recommend people do is they either hire or they pick one person who is the barrier between you and all of these different things. So instead of having all of these people, all of these different conversations, and I say this as someone who, when I first started, didn't do this and it drove me insane. Having one person who is your, you know, your EA or your admin or whatever you want to call them, whose job it is to get all of that information, take it in, put it either respond to all the messages as much as possible, because they'll learn and they'll be able to respond to a bunch of really easy stuff, and then bring you, you know, at a certain time of the day, maybe it's the morning, maybe it's the afternoon, maybe it's twice a day, you know, if you're getting started, the information and say, okay, this is this is the list. And you can just go through and say, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. That is how you can radically reduce the amount of inbox, Slack, notifications, all of those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so once you have um you've determined how that they can deal with the list issues, um, what else? What are the other strategies that you have that uh you work with clients on?

SPEAKER_04:

The biggest thing I see a lot, um, and this happens, uh, is when someone says to me, you know, I go, okay, well, that's cool. Now we've got a bit of a delivery system going. You know, you've got your team, they're doing their jobs. How are we gonna grow? And people say, ah, you know, I get referrals. And that's cool. That's not how we grow a business. So, you know, one of the first things that I want to do with people is I want to map out how their business works in terms of acquisition, you know, sales. Are they doing Facebook ads? Are they doing, you know, posting in different areas? Like how are they actually getting people in? And then how are they going through and, you know, getting those people to chat with them, quoting those people, getting those quotes turned around as fast as possible? That kind of stuff becomes really important. And who's responsible for all of it? Because sometimes what we find is that your business flow is kind of a half-built mess of ideas and things that didn't work and guys that you hired, but they don't really do this anymore. And you're not actually, you're not actually got a funnel business that is actually flowing consistently. And if you do, your name is on every one of those boxes. So that's a problem as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Interesting. And so are those strategies related to ADHD? Or I mean these are are these just marketing organizational strategies in general?

SPEAKER_04:

They're business strategies built for ADHD brains. So for example, I'm not gonna tell you to go away and write an SOP doc and put it in a big file because you'll never see it again. What I am gonna tell you to do is draw out a flow using something like Miro that you can see and then put it in, you know, red, orange, green. So it's very simple, you know, dopamine supporting stuff, and then build that into your weekly meeting. And if you don't have a weekly meeting, then we teach you how to have that so that you have that accountability, those little dopamine fires that happen more regularly to get you to do stuff. So it's about taking, yeah, the best of the best when it comes to AD, you know, business knowledge and marketing knowledge, but then combining it with how your brain actually works so that you don't just go, cool, I've learned a hundred thousand dollars worth of strategies and I haven't implemented a single one of them.

SPEAKER_01:

I see. Okay. Um so can you when you meet somebody can you figure out if they have ADHD? Like, do you notice things with people?

SPEAKER_04:

I mean, I think you do pick up things when you meet somebody. I mean, one of the big things is that we're on the same wavelength. And if you look at the research, that kind of backs it up. You're like, oh, we we we think in a similar way, you know, that because I have ADHD as well. Um, do I diagnose people? No. Keep my mouth shut and and just let them do what they do. Um, but yeah, I think, I think you start to pick things up.

SPEAKER_01:

Hmm. So what are what are some of the common common things that are characteristic of somebody who has that? Like if you just meet someone for the first time, is it can you just tell that they're do they move on conversationally? Can they not stay focused on a on a point? Or is it they move around or they're constantly looking over or they're they can't stay focused?

SPEAKER_04:

Depends on the kind of it depends on the kind of ADHD they have. I would say that one of the things might be that they um they tend to jump around in terms of conversation. So we could be talking about this, and then we could be talking about that, and you know, you know, this sort of ABCF kind of way of talking, um, which I do as well. And so it's it's it's a great way to have a conversation to me.

SPEAKER_01:

What is that?

SPEAKER_04:

Just the idea of like, you know, if you think about going down a path, you know, this happened and then this happened and then this happened. And so for some people, it's like they're going down, they're telling you the story. If you're ADHD, you know, this is a generalization, not everyone will do this, but you could be like, okay, well, I went out and this happened. And actually that reminds me of this other thing that happened, which reminds me of this idea I had for a new business, and now we're talking about different things.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

I've I've I've been privy to some of those exchanges. Yeah. And you're like, what are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. That's interesting. Um, so when you I think you might have said this earlier, but when you said it depends on what type of ADHD, what are the types? Are are there ever like so people come with you and they say I am XYZ AD ADHD? Is there designations? Like, what are the different types?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, so there's three different types. You can have primarily inattentive, primarily hyperactive, or combined type.

SPEAKER_01:

Inattentive. Okay.

SPEAKER_04:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

How does that manifest itself?

SPEAKER_04:

That's the ADD. So you asked me that at the time.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so that's the A D D. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. And then you have the A D H D, which is the hyperactive. Correct?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, primarily hyperactive, and then you've got combined.

SPEAKER_01:

Active, okay. And then the combined. I say, okay. Oh, gotcha. Okay. Um, so the combined is really like if we think about people on the job side or people running the construction business, like the combined it can be a bit of a debilitating thing to have.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Well, I have combined type. So I I wouldn't say it's dehabilitating, it just means you're kind of a little bit of everything.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. All right. Um well, this is cool. So what um what advice do you have for people if they're running their business or they're on the job site and they're like, ah god, I'm just kind of not I'm not connecting, or I feel like I'm letting people down, or um, I'm letting my staff down, or whatever that is. Like what what are some of the what's some advice you have for people?

SPEAKER_04:

The number one thing I'd say is what you I what I don't think you should do is just beat yourself up and say, you know, I'm a problem, you know, I just need to try harder. Uh, because you probably are trying pretty hard, you know. Most people are trying pretty hard at that point when they're having those conversations. It's usually about, okay, what do I need to change about how these things are happening and how these systems are running to make it fit better for me? And that's the big shift. A lot of times people will just say, I'm just gonna wake up and I'm just gonna hit that wall harder. But eventually, yeah, wall will break you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, I hear you. Well, this has been pretty cool. You know, I've I've learned a lot through this. Um yeah, so how do people get in touch with you on LinkedIn or on your website? So you've got unconventional organization.com, is that right?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, you can find me at unconventional organization.com. You can listen to our podcast, the ADHD Skills Lab, if you want to listen to you know, entrepreneurs and and you know, some of the ADHD research. Um, or you can find me at unconventional organization on Instagram, and you can just message me, James, if you want the focus chatbot to help you get started.

SPEAKER_01:

That is pretty cool. Well, Sky, that has been awesome. Um thank you very much. I appreciate it. It's been really nice meeting you and uh good luck with everything that you're doing. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

No worries. That was awesome. Thanks for having me. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, that does it for another episode of this late. Thank you for listening.