The SiteVisit

Wood Revolution: Building Taller, Smarter, Greener with Shawn Keyes, Executive Director at WoodWorks BC

• James Faulkner • Season 6 • Episode 170

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The future of construction is growing taller, more sustainable, and increasingly made of wood. Shawn Keyes, Executive Director of WoodWorks BC, takes us deep into the rapidly evolving world of mass timber construction and why British Columbia has emerged as North America's innovation hub for this revolutionary building material.

The environmental benefits are striking. Mass timber buildings typically contain 30-70% less embodied carbon than concrete alternatives, making them increasingly attractive to organizations with strong sustainability mandates. This carbon advantage, combined with the natural biophilic elements wood brings to interior spaces, has positioned mass timber as the material of choice for forward-thinking developers and public sector projects.

Prefabrication naturally complements mass timber construction. This approach significantly reduces construction timelines while improving quality control—crucial advantages in addressing housing supply challenges.

As the industry evolves, Keyes and his team at WoodWorks BC continue breaking down barriers through education, technical support, and direct project assistance. Whether you're a developer considering mass timber for the first time or an architect looking to push the boundaries of wooden construction, their resources can help navigate this exciting frontier in sustainable building.

Ready to explore how wood can transform your next construction project? Tune in now.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Site. Visit Podcast Leadership and Perspective from Construction with your host, james Faulkner, recorded live from the show floor at BuildX Vancouver 2025. All right, mr Sean Keyes, how are you doing today? I'm doing well, james. Thanks for having me. What do you think of the show so far?

Speaker 2:

It's been great. We've got a lot of wood exhibitors here and a lot of folks new and familiar faces so it's been a great show for us so far.

Speaker 1:

Perfect, Okay, introduction you are Executive Director at Woodworks BC and I did ask you before the podcast what does your week look like? Very hard to answer, which is cool. That means you do a lot of things multifaceted kind of position you have. So let's talk about Woodworks BC and nonprofit organization, and you were saying that you get your resources to run the organization by a number of things from government programs and also the different suppliers, manufacturers within the wood industry. Yeah, through the Canadian Wood Council.

Speaker 2:

That's the second time.

Speaker 1:

I got that wrong. I got it wrong with Alejandro as well. So yeah, so just take us through. So you're advocating for the use of, you know, wood products. Where is the biggest bang for your buck in time for you to be? So how do you, how do you get involved? How to, how to do you? Is there a business development aspect to this, where you guys reach out to developers? Hey, we'd like to talk about upcoming projects. How's that all work?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely there's, I say, three main things that our woodwork team does specifically uh, we do what we call direct project support and that's a lot like you described. That's direct outreach to developers. We have a team of uh engineers and architects and technicians kind of all across canada, so we're able to add value to them by providing guidance on newer forms of reconstruction that they may or may not be familiar with and help them along the process. That's kind of one key bucket. The second is continuing education. So we have 14 educational sessions here today and yesterday at BuildX, and a lot of what we do is con ed, so we'll do that for architects, anyone along the construction value chain, engineers, contractors, developers as well. And then the third bucket is technical resources, so we'll provide things like solutions, papers or case studies and guides based on existing projects, our own knowledge, industry knowledge to help spread that. And, just essentially, the fundamental goal is to make it easier for people to build with water.

Speaker 1:

Nice, that's cool. So do you try and obviously get in as early as possible, like as people are imagining things, even from the design phase.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. I mean we like to go back even as far as due diligence phase if a developer is contemplating a project, especially for material that they might not be familiar with, that they're using for a mass timber project, potentially in a 7 or 18 story building. There's a lot of unknowns and our team can help them navigate those Really, the earlier the better. We can point them to who the suppliers are, who the different firms are that have experience in that sector.

Speaker 1:

So what's the bifurcation between using wood products for structural versus like? If we look here at the convention center, you see from a design point of view it's more of a design feature all of that wood.

Speaker 2:

Both are great. Both are great uses of wood. Both are great uses of wood. Our team focused more on structural uses of wood, just given how our membership is, and it allows us to be a little bit more focused in terms of who we're working with and why. But wood finishes within a building can add great feel, make it feel more like the outdoors.

Speaker 1:

What do they call it biophilic?

Speaker 2:

Biophilic design principles, absolutely Biophilic design principles. There was a good panel session yesterday. I don't know if you got to catch it, but architects love this stuff and it's really an emerging science as well too. So there's a lot of research going into whether wood finishes can help reduce stress or anxiety. It's still an emerging space, but there is a lot of research. That's quite interesting.

Speaker 1:

That's cool. That's cool. One second, please Can you get those guys to move on? Sorry, no worries. Yeah, so it's an interesting spot to be trying to record at a live event. We had just a group of people who were super loud right here, but now they've moved on, so now I can hear you, probably without any distraction. I apologize for that, no worries. When companies are using things for when is the biggest impact for you guys? Is it just using wood products in general, or is it trying to push more for perhaps less traditional materials? When I say traditional, I mean less concrete, more timber. Is that where the big bang for the buck is on your side, or is it on the design?

Speaker 2:

side. That's the essence of it in a nutshell For us. We try to focus a little bit more on emerging sectors of construction. So wood is extremely popular and residential. Under six stories, very good uptake. Our goals at that market are just to make sure that.

Speaker 1:

Like the stick build kind of stuff. Exactly it's very common.

Speaker 2:

You're seeing more prefabrication in those sectors now as well. But our goals with those sectors are just to make sure that those buildings remain viable and that design and construction professionals have the tools that they need to keep making them successful and economically viable. But where I guess the interesting problem solving comes is emerging markets or markets where we haven't traditionally used much wood, so residential, call it, seven and above. Now that the building code's expanded, we tend to focus quite a bit more effort there, where we're still figuring out the best systems to use. There's more education that needs to be done, so we focus a lot of efforts there, and there are more risks from a private sector, so we can add value to those types of projects a little bit more easy to help them happen.

Speaker 1:

One thing that Alejandro was talking about was the fact that now it can go up to 18 stories, or is it beyond that now?

Speaker 2:

Up to 18 stories via building code in BC as of April last year. So that expands the opportunities just hugely. There are some precedent projects across North America that are a little bit taller than that. So there are ways, but right away we're doing the building code 18 stories residential and just growing that new market is a huge focus and a huge opportunity for a wood second probably.

Speaker 1:

We were talking about a project that's near where I live, which is called. It didn't go forward the terrace. Do you remember that one? It was like down on Pender and between Pender and Hastings, and it was supposed to be the tallest wood frame.

Speaker 2:

Oh, okay.

Speaker 1:

It didn't go through for some reason. I think the market kind of didn't hit it at the right time. But you're seeing architects planning out these using more. When I say wood frame, I'm talking like mass, like big structural beam kind of situation which is actually pretty cool stuff.

Speaker 2:

It's really interesting. I mean the emergence of mass timber, which is it's a relatively new technology in the construction sector, but it's kind of old in nature.

Speaker 1:

Well, we've seen parallel beams for years, exactly, and it's not much different, is it?

Speaker 2:

There's a lot of similarities. You're basically creating large format panels and we've even created nail laminated timber buildings up to 100 years ago. Some of the buildings in downtown Vancouver are constructed just with 2x4s or 2x6s right beside each other nailed together. There are many ways you can create those large panels, whether it's cross laminated timber or glue laminated timber, but you're basically talking panels up to 11 and a half feet wide by uh, up to 60 feet long, and solid structures. So it's it's a really exciting time to be part of the wood entry, cause it just opens up new options because, uh, those buildings are are more fire resistant than you know, buildings which are built out of smaller wood pieces.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, for sure, we, I was, uh, we used to have our office in, um well, the old office we had in yale town. It had the um, old growth fur, uh, cedar, I think for cedar in there.

Speaker 1:

Anyway, the beams were like 16, 16 inches huge and I used to break off screws trying to screw into them. You couldn't Like. They almost became like concrete, sure, but we're not seeing that. Are we seeing a lot of that reclaimed stuff? I mean, how do you guys get involved in the reclaimed wood from, or is it mostly just from, new materials or byproduct materials?

Speaker 2:

Primarily still from new materials, but we're talking much smaller pieces of wood. Almost any mass timber product is made up of 2x6 or smaller pieces, right Depending on the manufacturer and location, but we're not talking large 16x16 like you're speaking about. Yeah, definitely not. Some of those old beautiful buildings are fabulous. There's also been a lot of innovation on the connection side. There's a lot of different screw manufacturers now that create these screws that are up to almost a meter long.

Speaker 2:

It's self-tapping. You don't even need to pre-drill holes on site for some of these screws. I'd like to see the drill bit for that or the socket for that. It's large yeah.

Speaker 1:

I would say yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

But the new technologies, you're putting together a highly engineered building. We're not using traditional materials. Everything's very done, precise, on site.

Speaker 1:

It's very interesting. You said that because even the chat I had yesterday was you know you think about how much on the wood side of things. But it really is often that's the easy part. The hard part is the connection, the connection to you know for vertical and transfers pieces that you're going to have to have those specifically made for the building each time to to, to match that actual wood product yeah what is the? What country is like the leading in that? Is it the swiss and the germans again?

Speaker 2:

the europeans have, um, are a little bit further in the mass timber space. They've imported a lot of knowledge over to north america specifically, bc's become a leader in north america. Um, yeah, I think we've got about 350 mass timber buildings and there's only about 850 or so across canada, so almost almost 50 percent there. Um, and lot of the knowledge even that was built here in the early days. I would say we had the first mass timber manufacturer in 2009 here in BC. Because of that and that knowledge being imported, there's a very strong cluster of design practitioners, of builders, of erectors that was built here and that knowledge is actually expanded across North America. You're seeing, even some of the projects that are built in Ontario are maybe being designed by folks here in BC or being installed by folks who were originally trained here in BC.

Speaker 2:

It's kind of exporting east and south from our kind of knowledge hub in North America here. But in terms of an international scale, we have world-class designers and construction firms. But in terms of an international scale, we have world-class designers and construction firms here. In terms of mass timber, the Europeans have been doing it maybe a little bit longer, but we have very different construction sectors and we build differently.

Speaker 1:

Nice. I just had Chris Hill from B Collective on. Do you know him?

Speaker 2:

Great, absolutely yeah, chris and I cross paths, I think maybe five or six times in the last two years.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so in terms of, like, you know, we were kind of geeking out on some of the building material stuff, and I mean on the prefab side of things. Obviously there is components from you know that are going to be coming to site, sort of the offsite construction side of things. You know that that are going to be coming to site, sort of that off-site construction side of things, um, but stuff like he's, he's making these panels, um, which is kind of interesting as well, the. Are you seeing that? Um, the advent of off-site construction? Um and um, uh and uh components coming from other places, sort of the lego build, if you will, dovetailing very well with your initiatives.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Chris is a great advocate for the offsite construction industry and with what we're trying to do in terms of building that mass timber sector, it's inherently an offsite form of construction. You're building very large formats and kind of putting them in like lego pieces, like you said. So any type of prefabrication we think adds value to the construction site yeah there's.

Speaker 2:

There's always complexities in terms of, uh, has the design thought about prefabrication and built that in? Yeah, are we able to meet the construction schedules which are constantly changing and evolving. So prefab has great opportunity to just speed up construction broadly in any form of prefabrication, whether that's, you know, a light wood frame, wall or floor cassette or a mass timber panel. Both are, both are excellent and, uh, you know, chris and I are always trying to get unlock some of these barriers around prefabrication, just that are inherent within the system. That we haven't, uh, that we've built around more traditional forms of construction or concrete in a high-rise setting or stick built in in a low rise setting creates some challenges for prefab.

Speaker 1:

That the sector is still emerging, but it has great, great opportunity to, you know, really advance our construction sector so we have a huge spectrum of different types of builders in british columbia and I think it's probably the same everywhere is where you have the people building hospitals and airports and then you have the people building, you know, renovating a home. So there's that huge spectrum of Well, transversely, there's probably there's professionalism on either side. On that. There's probably great large builders and some that don't have good reputations and it's the same down at the bottom end of that scale. But where do you see the? Is it the sort of mid place in the spectrum, you see where the great opportunity is or is it sort of a top-down influence that the smaller guys want to look like the bigger guys?

Speaker 1:

So they're talking about this kind of using mass timber, products, etc. So it is kind of a trend, right, absolutely. So when we talk about trend, what are the factors that create trends to move and influence each other and you know, sometimes it can become a branding exercise is that a developer wants to be known, their project to be known for using these things because it's considered innovative, etc. And then, at the end of the line, maybe the people who, let's say it's a, a company that's going into a particular building um, you know mec is a perfect example of. They want to go into a sustainable building, they want it to be made with these materials, etc.

Speaker 1:

Um, and then uh, or maybe the homeowner on the smaller scale wants to have to be able to tell their friends all when they have them over for cocktails that, hey, we built this with this, this was this material, we had this prefab. We've saved this amount of this by using these particular type of things. X amount of dollars and hours have been saved, whatever. So there's lots. Where do you think that influence comes from? Or is it just multifaceted everywhere?

Speaker 2:

I I think uh, a lot, a lot of where it comes from in terms of early adoption and innovation is who's positioned to maybe take on risk or overcome some of those innovation costs. So when it comes to mass timber, a lot of the early adopters were public sector.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, they wanted their buildings to be more sustainable than the concrete alternative lower embodied carbon with wood products, generally speaking. So we see a lot of innovation happening there in a lot of research projects. You saw, actually, the first tall mass timber building in North America was Brock Commons at UBC. It was 18 stories. That building was built back in 2016, 2017. So been around for almost 10 years now and really that spurred this recent change in the building code now, so we're seeing those early adopters in the public sector start to drive demand, increase knowledge and really be the first adopter, and I think now we're starting to shift more.

Speaker 1:

We're seeing more commercial a lot of pickup and commercial.

Speaker 2:

Unfortunately not many people are building commercial office right now, but MEC was a um example. There as well, they have their home office as well as a lot of their stores use wood and mass timber products. But in terms of what we're seeing now, we're starting to see now the building codes change, adding more options and residential, a lot of non-profit housing. Housing, uh, projects, associations, yeah, trying to get into mass timber specifically for, specifically for those ESG benefits, the alignment with BC housing goals and mandates, those types of things. So we're starting to see non-profit sector kind of take the lead a little bit. And then the next sector as well. We are seeing some interest as well from more private developers, specifically in the rental space. Just because there aren't that many comparables for people to look at within the real estate sector, I think it might be a little bit less risky for a renter, someone who might not really notice whether they might not care too much whether they're building concrete or wood.

Speaker 2:

When you think about the public sector, they might not understand the value differences between wood frame and mass timber and concrete. It's a little bit more nuanced but as the real estate sector is more traditionally built on, they understand what a wood frame building is and what concrete building is. They won't really understand what this new middle piece is.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, that makes sense. So you were saying that the ESG programs get involved in this. How's that work? It's almost turned into just the EG these days, though. Right, I think the social parts?

Speaker 2:

It depends, it seems to be on the rocks.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so companies with strong.

Speaker 2:

ESG goals will want to reduce the embodied carbon of their buildings and the emissions that go into the products, and there are ways to calculate this. Most design teams will have the ability to do this kind of in-house.

Speaker 1:

Because wood products still absorb right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so they, generally speaking. They'll absorb carbon from the atmosphere and store that throughout the project.

Speaker 1:

Does it still do that with laminated panels and stuff like that?

Speaker 2:

Even with the glue involved.

Speaker 1:

Does it do that or not?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, my understanding is all the wood, not really my area of expertise.

Speaker 1:

It becomes a little less of a living organism once you get surrounded by glue, obviously.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, every product has what they call a unique environmental product declaration, so EPD.

Speaker 1:

Okay, what's that called again? Epd Environmental? What Product declaration? Okay, nice okay cool.

Speaker 2:

So if you're getting a glulam product or a product that has glue in it, that will take that into consideration and that into consideration and that will tell you the embodied carbon impact of that product and basically you'll take a look at all the pieces that you use within your building, whether it's structure envelope, sometimes even non-structural components as well.

Speaker 2:

Tally all those up, it'll give you an embodied carbon for your building how much carbon went into that building and typically what we're seeing is that a wood building could be anywhere from 30 to 66 to 70% less than a comparable concrete alternate. So there's a big reduction factor and when you can quantify that and the client can see it especially a public sector client who wants to be innovative and has a lot to gain from being sustainable and messaging that, a big motivating factor, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they can afford to use our tax sustainable and messaging that, yeah A big motivating factor. Yeah, yeah, they can afford to use our tax dollars for it too. They're like hey let's have a group.

Speaker 2:

Why is this?

Speaker 1:

designed so well. Well, you know, it doesn't inherently need to be more expensive.

Speaker 2:

But they do need to be a driver too, right, yeah, absolutely, and you know a lot of our sector here in BC. A big economic driver for the province has long been forestry, so more important than ever to use wood products. Long been a leader in forestry in North America.

Speaker 1:

So what are you seeing that's exciting? What are the things that you're thinking, wow, this is going to be awesome. Do you see some innovations going on right now that you're excited about?

Speaker 2:

There's a couple pieces. I mean, the building code changing just opens up way more opportunities. Yeah, and we talked about that. But, um, you know, one of the things that I'm actually always looking at for are what are, what are risks or challenges in buildings that we already built a lot of out of wood and uh, here in bc I'm an engineer by training, so yeah, I can nerd out a little bit about buildings. But we have seismic forces.

Speaker 1:

We actually had an earthquake just last week, A couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Exactly yeah, I felt it. I don't know about you.

Speaker 1:

I did. Yeah, I know the studio for the podcast has interior walls, so there's a courtyard inside the building. So we have glass looking out to the inside of the building, so it's not looking outside, and I saw the glass moving.

Speaker 2:

I was like wow, that's all right yeah yeah, I mean, I felt my bookshelf, you know, shaking next to me a little bit.

Speaker 2:

I think they keep moving it, but I think it's four or five, it's somewhere around five, yeah, so that's a constant challenge for design and innovation here in BC, and the six-story wood frame market has long been built out of wood, but their seismic forces are changing in March and that is a challenge but also an opportunity for us to innovate. So there are wood solutions to those types of buildings. So we're seeing shear walls being challenged by new forces. So our team has actually been doing a lot of work with Canada Wood Group, who works in Japan. Quite frequently there are high strength shear wall systems that we don't commonly use here in North America, but our team is starting to do a lot more education on them because they may become required along as seismic forces continue to increase. So it's it's not really an opportunity, it's more of a challenge but a unique puzzle for us to solve and help educate and work with the industry on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean we obviously on the on the challenge side of things. You know, I was looking at the LA wildfire thing and I mean that's just you see this footage of like a concrete house that's there and then the ones that weren't aren't there and so there's like I think there was in Kelowna. It's obviously become quite a thing, because Kelowna is very similar, it's got the winds come and it's a very similar kind of I mean it's not on the coast but you have those winds come down. And it's like I had a friend of mine, a very successful realtor, up in Kelowna. His house was right on the edge of like where the wineries were, so it was basically all open brush behind him and he had to leave. He's like my house might not be here. So, um, it doesn't mean that's wood construction or not, it's not that that's irrelevant, but I think there's factors of wood and combustibility.

Speaker 2:

I mean I think alejandro is saying everything's kind of combustible to some degree um, yeah, I mean that is true, but, um, you know, we do need to make sure that we're spending a lot of resources actively managing our forests properly so that we don't see those types of fires. You know, there's a forestry management piece in there and techniques that have been used not really my area of expertise, but techniques that have been used to help manage those, make sure it doesn't happen, doesn't get too close to the city been used to help manage those.

Speaker 2:

make sure it doesn't happen, doesn't get too close to the city. And then there are lots of rules about the exterior of buildings within the building code, about which components can and cannot be combustible.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that would make sense. Having that protection on the outside is highly important. So, in terms of what we've seen, I always find it crazy. When I drive around Vancouver and I'll see, as you said, a small kind of condo project wood frame, I'm seeing particle board going up, plywood going up. I'm just thinking not particle board, but OSB going up and it's raining and I'm thinking, does this stuff dry out? It seems very weird Like we're in this, like rainforest basically, and we're putting up wood and wood's getting soaked while it's being built and then after that they're going in there with big dryers, right Like the big flame, basically propane and drying from the inside out.

Speaker 2:

You definitely don't want to use propane or any kind of fire.

Speaker 1:

What are they using in there now to dry?

Speaker 2:

that out Air primarily In most of those wood frame buildings because the components are small, they actually dry out quite quickly and we don't see many problems Because small components you know I-joists, plywood, those types of things. Where it's actually more critical to think through is in mass timber, where these panels are quite large. Yeah, that means that if it does get soaked or really wet, it will take longer to dry out, and that's really the issue or challenge with wood on a construction site is making sure that it dries correctly, yeah, and you're not locking in any moisture over time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

That's when you can see challenges.

Speaker 1:

But I think that when we go to the kind of business like Be Collective, for instance, and maybe advocating for that, it's changing the setup of how you're using wood, Because, really, because if you're just going to go and build on site like that and be bringing you know a bunch of two by fours etc. It's a different deal than if you're going to be delivering panels, You're going to be delivering posts, beams that are already. They don't need, they got enough glue in them. It doesn't matter. Like they're going to be pretty hydrophobic to begin with, Depending on the level of finish.

Speaker 2:

there's a whole bunch of different levels of finish in the prefab space. Some are closed walls, some are open walls, some are just plywood and joists, but all tend to lead to a cleaner, more sophisticated site that goes up faster, which also helps.

Speaker 1:

I can imagine you guys are dreaming of that more sophistication.

Speaker 2:

More sophistication generally leads to better outcomes, but our construction sector it's tough. It is tough.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean a lot of people do a lot. I mean it's interesting that you know the construction industry is under a lot of pressure timeline wise. I was listening to a podcast the other day and it was a big podcast and they repeated something that I had said many times is that what's very frustrating for a lot of construction folk here in the Lower Mainland anyways, is that you have people who are building projects that they can't afford to live in. It's just heartbreaking and it's not like that in other places in the world you can actually afford to live in the place you built. Yeah, I mean, obviously, if you're talking about the butterfly building or something like three thousand dollars a square foot, kids, just a stretch. But you know, if you're talking about like a mediocre, you know run-of-the-mill place, hey, most people should be able for one of those. But yeah, so it's kind of it's going to be. This is very difficult.

Speaker 2:

It's huge challenge. I mean, you know, as a relatively young person in the city of Vancouver wife and I have had many chats Is it economically viable for us to stay here? We love the city, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But that's also that's why you know the real estate condominiums are good. We have this beautiful geography, yeah, and you know we are privileged to live here and maybe it comes with a small premium. It might just be where we're at. But if we can do anything to speed up housing starts and construction, it can only help More supply, can only help the fundamentals, and you know it's a challenge, but I do commend the work that's being done. Like we're in a place right now, over the last let's say two years kind of since I started this role, we're throwing everything that we can at this.

Speaker 2:

Whether that's, bc housing programs or some of the things you're seeing coming out of the industry of housing or stuff that UDI is advocating for. Everyone's kind of now trying and realizing that this is a challenge that our young people may never be able to afford, to kind of stay here, you know, our next generations.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting if you can get, get uh canada to up its uh productivity not in the construction sector, I'm talking about all the other sectors so that we can have higher paying salaries. People can afford more because I don't think the prices are going to go down not not going down anytime soon.

Speaker 2:

No, even if they level out, that'd be great.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I just it's just, it seems like there will be a lull. And then there's just so many factors of why I was saying this on one of the interviews earlier is that you know, if you were to look 15, 20 years ago, if you were to say that you know that a computer company is going to be worth three trillion dollars, well, what was worth three trillion dollars back then? I mean, we're not talking that a computer company is going to be worth $3 trillion. Well, what was worth $3 trillion back then? I mean, we're not talking about millionaires anymore, we're talking about billionaires. It's just the way it is. Everything's becoming more expensive For sure.

Speaker 1:

Butter's $9. Don't buy butter anymore.

Speaker 2:

Avoid the dairy aisle.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, the dairy aisle is expensive. Actually, costco is actually pretty decent for it. Yeah, but anyway, we digress. So, sean, this was awesome. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you very much. I enjoyed the banter and thank you for expanding outside of the scope of your job and giving me some great perspective on the construction industry. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the time and thanks for the ask. It was a lot of fun. So how do people get a hold of you? People get a hold of us at wood-worksca or cwcca.

Speaker 1:

Perfect. And then you're on LinkedIn too.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely All over the place on social media LinkedIn, cwc or Woodworks accounts and yeah really pick up the phone and talk to our staff, okay.

Speaker 1:

Perfect, that's awesome. Well, thanks very much. That's awesome. Well, thanks very much. Enjoy the rest of your show. Thanks Right on. Thanks, bye-bye. Well, that does it for another episode of the Site Visit. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. You can also sign up for our monthly newsletter at sitemaxsystemscom slash the site visit, where you'll get industry insights, pro tips and everything you need to know about the SiteVisit podcast and Sitemax, the job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and beyond. Sitemax is also the engine that powers this podcast. All right, let's get back to building.