The SiteVisit

Digital Transformation in Construction Permits with Corrie Okell, General Manager of Development, Buildings, and Licensing at City of Vancouver

• James Faulkner • Season 6 • Episode 168

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The City of Vancouver is revolutionizing how construction permits are approved. At BUILDEX Vancouver 2025, we had the opportunity to chat with Corrie Okell, General Manager of Development, Buildings, and Licensing at the City of Vancouver, about how digital transformation is reducing permit wait times and reshaping the builder-city relationship.

Learn how the city has implemented technologies like ePlan, which allows for 24/7 drawing submissions. While the transition was initially challenging for paper-dependent professionals, this digital shift has created unprecedented flexibility for both industry and city staff.

What’s truly groundbreaking is Vancouver’s new approach to application quality. Poor submissions have historically caused endless back-and-forth delays. Now, innovative tools like the Project Requirements Exploration Tool (PRET) help property owners understand what can be built on their lot before submitting, while the new eComply system automatically identifies non-compliant elements in drawings in real time.

These technologies support Vancouver's ambitious 3-3-3-1 Permit Approval Framework:
 ✅ 3 days to approve home renovation permits (including those for mobility and accessibility-related upgrades).
 ✅ 3 weeks to approve single-family home and townhouse permits.
 ✅ 3 months to approve permits for professionally designed multi-family and mid-rise projects where zoning is already in place.
 ✅ 1 year to approve permits for high-rise or large-scale projects.

Want to know how these permitting innovations could impact your next project? Subscribe to The Site Visit for insights from construction industry leaders shaping the future of building.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Site. Visit Podcast. Leadership and Perspective from Construction with your host, james Faulkner.

Speaker 2:

Recorded live from the show floor at BuildX Vancouver 2025.

Speaker 1:

All right, I am very, very honored to have you here. Thank you, corey O'Kell, from the city of Vancouver. So you are the general manager of development, buildings and licensing.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I am.

Speaker 1:

So welcome.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, it's nice to be here.

Speaker 1:

Yes, here we are at BuildX. So what do you think of the show so far?

Speaker 2:

It's pretty good. So far, so good. Yeah this is my second year coming down here. Yeah, it's super interesting far so good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, this is my second year coming down here and yeah, it's super interesting. Yeah, it's kind of interesting, I guess, from being up at uh, at your offices, you're up on broadway and your whole foods. There is that where you guys still are now yeah, I'm at uh 10th and camby oh 10th and the van city building is where our offices are.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah, okay yeah I used to go in. Oh yeah, no, that's right, yeah, okay, yeah, no, exactly, you're um, so exactly where you are. So you know, very, very interesting. So from being at the office and doing all the things you do there and then coming down here and then just getting that hyper sense of there's so much going on and so many lives and all that all wrapped up and all of the things that you see on a daily basis, pretty crazy right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it is pretty crazy Pretty crazy, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is pretty crazy, all right. So we're going to talk today about you know processes with City Hall, you know approvals in technology, etc. And you know sort of where you see things going, what progresses you've seen over time and how things are going. So let's just chat a little bit about like digital transformation. So there's something that maybe you could sort of shed some light to this Does the push for technology always have to address the lowest common denominator for people to provide access? So let's just say, for instance, that a contractor is like a low-tech contractor and they do everything by paper, and is there some kind of rules where you have to still allow people to use paper if they want to?

Speaker 2:

Not anymore, not anymore.

Speaker 1:

So just take me through that. In terms of when people pull drawings from the city, are those provided digitally now only only? Or are they paper plans if they want to pay for them?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so we made a huge digital initial shift through COVID. Okay, so when we had to close down our doors and not touching anything we used to I mean, people used to line up, we used to have rules of people bringing in their plans, and then we implemented technology called ePlan so they could upload their drawings either digitally or provide as a PDF, and that's when we started to just take in everything in a digital format and using technology to review those plans and we stopped taking in paper about a year ago now.

Speaker 1:

Okay, okay, interesting, okay. Now, in terms of the formats, like at Cytomax, we have a drawings module where you can upload your drawings, and so is there with many uploads of drawings for construction management software platforms. There are requirements for those types of drawings. On what kind of formats that they are. Is there any restrictions in terms of a drawing being a flat vector drawing versus, like, a raster drawing, which would be a PDF that has handwritten things in it, because a digital document could be just a PDF with photos in it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so right now it's pretty much we're taking in PDFs for most things On our other things, like for our digital transformation, for our low density we're starting to have specific kinds of formats of those drawings that can be uploaded, that are more of like the 3D model instead of just being a PDF. Yeah, like a 2D drawing Okay Interesting.

Speaker 1:

So because I know that a lot of drawings that are let's say they're rasterized, they're basically flat, so if you were to zoom into them, they would get blurry at some point when you zoom in, keep zooming in, Whereas a vector-based drawing is resolution independent. You keep zooming in and it just keeps clearing itself up because it's actually a line, Like a wall line would actually be a coordinate in metadata in an actual document rather than a photo yeah, so we're.

Speaker 2:

We're working on having an integration so that we can have different kinds of drawings in the pdfs that we have right okay, that's cool.

Speaker 1:

So is it this digital transformation? What like bottom? Like, have you you had people up in arms about it? Has it been like? Oh my God, it didn't used to be like this. What sort of how do you heard?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so from when we had to go just to paper, like get rid of the paper and upload drawings, I think initially there are some people that have been working with paper for years and years and years. It was a challenge for years and years and years.

Speaker 2:

it was a challenge, so we gave leeway to try and get them to a place where they could have digital stamps and start to be able to use the technology to help, and I think now it's just common practice. I think a lot of people don't go in person for things, so their preference is to upload something. It makes us so. We're 24-7. You can upload drawings, drawings, you can upload your questions into our portal, so I think it's given more flexibility for industry for sure oh okay, that's cool.

Speaker 1:

Um, so in terms of um, the sort of how often do are you getting drawings and like they're just wrong, like people submit things and then there's checking from Do you're looking at? Let's say that they get a digital drawing set from you and then they modify that and then they make just a terrible error, so something's totally out. How much of a delay does that create? Typically, if somebody doesn't get something quite right and they're trying to get their you know inspection done, for instance?

Speaker 2:

yeah, so. So that does cause a lot of back and forth because they could upload it. It may take a couple days for it to be reviewed, yeah, and then if it's wrong, we have to go back to them, and that is one of the key things is like, the quality of the submissions is what started us on our digital journey. That makes sense, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the quality of submissions is hard because you know sometimes, like you know, with not every renovation is you're going to go to an architect for some. Sometimes you know construction companies have internal teams that they know how to do CAD, they know how to do these drawings, and it isn't an architect. I mean, if you're going to do especially with some of your renovation projects, so maybe, maybe, um, this is something that people don't know. Is that what? When did you um? When did you um announce or release the program for renovations under a certain dollar amount? Uh, were able to get a permit in a couple of weeks.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so it was about a year ago and we started a residential renovation fast track.

Speaker 1:

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so people, if they're doing like a low scope of renovation, they can upload their drawings. We review them within a couple of days and then it's basically an inspector goes out to verify the work.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So that's allowed us for our 3331 platform from the ABC party and our mayor and council. It's allowed us to meet that first target of three days.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so ABC pushed that through.

Speaker 2:

They ran on a platform of 3-3-3-1, which is renovations within three days, low density within three weeks, mid-rise within three months for permits and then one year for rezonings.

Speaker 1:

Oh, interesting. Yeah, so is the rezoning thing a gong show, like with the laneway houses and all that stuff?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I don't know For larger developers. Rezoning doesn't sit within my department. That sits in with planning and urban design. But they did a lot of work in planning around reducing the zoning. So bringing in for residential zones like an R11, which allows now multiplexes and much easier to apply for permits rather than having to go through that rezoning process. It allows those to be built broadly throughout the city.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so what other transformations from a digital point of view do you see coming down the pike? You were saying that some things would be 3D modeled for some of your larger projects.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I'll speak to what we're undergoing right now. Our main focus is low-density housing. So a couple of years ago we started our digital transformation project and it was really about that complete application coming in, like we spoke about before. So we found a lot of time in the low-density housing stream. People are often homeowners wanting to do their own work.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

They may not hire an architect, and so they have a lot of questions. They don't know what to submit.

Speaker 2:

So we brought in a project requirement tool called PrEP is what we call it where people can go and look at their lot and say what do I want to build here, what could I build here? And so they can enter a bunch of data into the system and I'll say this is what you can build on your lot, whether it's a single family house in a laneway or it's a multiplex or whatever that might be, it actually tells them what they can build on their lot. The second phase which we're piloting right now is e-comply, which then allows, when they get to like, oh I think I want to build this here, they can submit their drawings and it'll basically right away review those drawings and tell them what does not comply with our regulations. So if the building's too big, if the setback's too small, so it'll actually look at that for them, and all that work out front is then helping us get them to where they can then submit an application that is in more compliance than it would have been before those technologies were implemented.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's pretty cool. So and this is mostly obviously like for the detached single family home, that is, these lots are just not exploited for density. So is that the main goal of City of Vancouver to make sure there's enough like laneway houses and all that are obviously going to increase density within neighborhoods? Is that kind of the mandate?

Speaker 2:

I don't know if that's our. That's where we've started on the digital path. We want to expand that to higher density with development permits, building permits. But we wanted to start somewhere where it's very repetitive and high volume. So that allowed us to trial the software and really see what's working and what isn't, and then engage with industry to see how we have to change it to work for them, to see how we have to change it to work for them. So that's everywhere, from laneway house, single family dwelling, multiplex and duplex is all being trialed right now in that scope.

Speaker 1:

Right, okay, yeah, it's so interesting for the homeowner. You hear this oh the city. And how does that become more of a symbiotic relationship rather than an adversarial one? It just seems like from you know, as I was saying before the podcast, lots of friends they've renovated, lots of condos, done all this stuff. I'd want to confirm that that's all he did for a while. And you hear oh the city, oh the city, oh the city, oh the city. And this is all the complaints I've heard over the years. So how does it level set? For is it the fact that maybe it's when people feel they have ownership over something, it feels like maybe they don't have the autonomy they thought that they did? Because I think that is probably like the baseline of it, the baseline of frustration.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I feel that a lot of the time it's a shared well, I know it's a shared journey. So when we talked before that that you know we don't maybe get a totally complete application and then they, um don't know what they have to submit. So there's a bit of back and forth and it's like, well, the city's being unreasonable, um, but the implementation of these tools. Our goal is that there won't be that back and forth anymore and it isn't just the city, because they'll have provided us like the best information possible right away, which then helps us to then expedite any kind of additional review we'd have to do on our end. And as soon as we get back to somebody, if there's deficiencies or things that they have to change, the sooner they get back to us is the faster. Then we'll get back to them with their permit. Right, okay, is the faster, then we'll get back to them with their permit.

Speaker 1:

Right, okay, in terms of buildings that were built a certain way in the past, and then people want to do a renovation and then they like a particular format of something. Maybe they want, I don't know, maybe they have, maybe there's something that they know that on new builds you can't have anymore. Maybe it's like a gas range or it's a something like that. Right, and they're like hell bent on that and they want that thing, and but they know, if they do a renovation over a certain that, this, the city might say well, you know, if you're going to redo your kitchen, you can't put this in this time. Is that does that like? And there's probably a myriad of things that are the way the building used to be, and if you want to change it now, you have to update it on a number of things that weren't actually in your plan.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. So that is a challenge I will agree that that many people often face. So there, you know, we know our um. Lots of homes within the city are older and people maybe want to upgrade them and they have to comply with the new regulations. So it's not like you can go back in time to I don't know 1970 when your house was built it. Now, looking at at what the code is today, because we're trying to build that more resilient city where you know, looking at um, looking at things like code that's around, um, it's failing me right now, but if there's an earthquake like we, have I know seismic, there you go, seismic yeah.

Speaker 2:

Right. So, looking at you know, is there a ability that they have to do seismic upgrades? And that's both residential and commercial. You know we always look for opportunities to make our city better and if somebody's coming in and renovating in a commercial building, quite often it's like well, how much of it can you make more resilient and seismically upgrade? And I know that that's obviously a conversation that goes around quite often and you know we're trying to look at ways to support business around those things support homeowners, but there are some code things that they just have to comply with that are hard, and that's why we often also tell them that you know, hiring a professional is usually will know exactly what needs to happen and it makes it a much more smoother process for them as well.

Speaker 1:

Do you have like ancillary consultants that can help people with this stuff? Because I think there's this. I think the fear for a lot of people is and this is the bottleneck a lot of people have is this fear of the unknown. I don't know who I'm dealing with at the city. It's this big bureaucracy. They don't know who I'm dealing with at the city. It's this big bureaucracy. They don't know. There's no relationship until maybe an inspector's involved. Other than that it's just emails. But is there any? Because I would think it would probably help the city if you guys could say well, if you want to pay extra to this, we can recommend somebody who can liaise with us to sort of smooth out the bumps for you, because I think that there's sometimes a communication gap in between this and it creates an adversarial relationship. So is there any kind of body that does it besides regular consultants?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it would be hard for us to take a position to be advising on who they should reach out to, because we're just, you know, we're neutral in that way. But we're always open if somebody's having challenges and sometimes when things get escalated to me, they're like, oh, we've been going back and forth for six months on something and I'm like, is this the first time it's been escalated? Have you talked to anybody else? And they're like, no, we haven't. I'm like, okay, well, you could have.

Speaker 2:

You know, like we actually encourage people to request in-person meetings if they don't understand To request, or if it has to be, you know, a teams meeting or whatever. We encourage that because I think things get resolved so much faster in person and it's so much clarity is provided when you can have that in-person, one-on-one with your project facilitator or your project coordinator. So we are encouraging that. I mean that did shift through COVID and you know we're well out of COVID and we're looking out of COVID and we're looking at a new model for our services center where we can bring back more of that one-on-one interaction where people can come in and get advice from us on the projects they're trying to undergo.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, you must have probably seen over the years, thanks to YouTube, everyone kind of knows how to do things these days, and probably pretty well. I mean, there's things that a lot of people would have had to go to trade school to even learn. Now it's like here I'll show you how to do it, and that's got to be complex for you guys, because everyone thinks they can do it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we get doodles on napkins of people that think they can. This is the renovation I want to do and it's just like hand drawn and not understanding that we need something a little bit more than that. So I think there is a lot of do it yourselfers. I think that sometimes that creates where they're not pulling permits and then down the road if they're wanting to do something else on a larger scale and inspectors have to come in or we're reviewing previous plans, then you know that can create issues as well for work that they've done on their own that potentially they should have at least gotten a permit for much headache.

Speaker 1:

is it like if you could eliminate the the crap drawings factor of of submissions? How much time do you think that takes?

Speaker 2:

like if you still get emails going back and forth delays everything just because the drawing wasn't quite right yeah, the drawing, the information provided, the documents being provided and and with the technology that's what we're trying to eliminate is that back and forth, so people know right up front what they need to submit? It takes weeks off of the process.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it would. So it would seem like an artificial intelligence layer would be very helpful there, like immediately on submission, for the AI to be able to give you an instant result. That it's not right Somehow.

Speaker 1:

So if you were to submit a drawing, for instance, and there's obviously clear errors in it compared to another set, because obviously you have a permanent application number and that application number has the lot address and etc. And it could have access to those plans and it could collate those things together and provide here's where errors are immediately or within five minutes, rather than taking a week, because a week can turn into oh, I've got to do a revision another week to another week of approval to it, like this could be way quicker. So have you guys gone down that road of thinking of an artificial intelligence layer for drawing submissions?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's something I mean. Ai is a buzzword nowadays. Everybody's using it. I think that there's a lot of value in it. There's a lot to still explore there. The technology that we're using to look at plans does have a bit of that component in it where it's like you're submitting it and it's looking at what complies and what doesn't comply. We're just at the initial trial period with that and then we're going to be expanding that and growing on that in the upcoming months and years.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, interesting. So what I find something that you mentioned earlier is that there was a push from city council it's an ABC party at that time to be able to get the 3-3, what was it? 3-3? 3-3-3-1. 3-3-3-1.

Speaker 1:

Four years of having people in there is a long time, and these days things move so quickly, time and so these days things move so quickly and it's, I think, what sometimes do you feel that there is a disconnect, communication wise, between the general public and City Hall, the building, your office, and to sort of create some confidence and level setting, I think trying to get rid of the adversarial part, Because I'll give you an example of something that is crazy. This is the feeling that the public has. They'll see something for an application or plans to redo the Granville District when all our roads have holes everywhere. What are we doing? Get the basics down so people think that is your department, even though it's civil roads and all that. Everyone thinks it's the same thing. Everyone says the city, the city, the city, and you guys get lumped into that and actually you guys are doing a lot of work. This city is very complicated.

Speaker 2:

It is very complicated.

Speaker 1:

Huge amount of dollars and also, as you can imagine, the compression of interest rates and developers like up to here with pressure. I mean, you've probably seen many coloring books of all sorts of situations where you're like God, this is crazy, what's going on in the city. So what do you think about that? How can there be a less adversarial relationship in general, the general discourse and communication between the public and the city?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I you know what I think we I think we're doing a really good job on communicating out all the work that we're doing about the initiatives that are underway. I mean, for my department I work very closely with our engineering team and our planning team to try and coordinate that and get that word out of all the work we're trying to do, especially in the development realm and how can we support developers?

Speaker 2:

Being a public servant, it's like I want to serve my community and make sure it's a better place, regardless of what else is going on, and knowing that we're in a housing crisis, and how can I support that and supporting the city of Vancouver and the people that want to live here and stay here, Um, so I think that's really like a focus every day that people need to understand we are trying to make it better for for everybody, regardless of what department we're in or, um, what different mandates come we. We know what we have to do and everybody feels the pressure right now. I know developers are feeling pressures. You know we feel pressures every day to try and assist in any way we can. So just trying to continually get the word out, I think is important.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I said before the podcast, you know your inspectors that come by are very good. Before the podcast, you know your inspectors that come by are very good. I have to say, like we had an electrical inspector come by, super great guy, nice guy, came in. You could tell years and years of experience. It was just like oh so you know when it works, it works very well. And I think, you know, I think that there's sometimes there's not enough credit given to those people who do such a great job. I think that there's also, like you know, we have this. You know the housing crisis, you know, as we many talk about, is a multifaceted problem. You know it's also being conflated with homelessness, which isn't the same thing. Yeah, you know, we have this crown jewel of the downtown and Vancouver that is a shoreline landlocked area. You can't move into the water.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

You can't push people off the beach and't move into the water. You can't push people off the beach and start building on the water, so it does have to go backwards, and this is the same everywhere else in the world. It's not a Vancouver unique experience. It's every coastal city that is beautiful goes through the same thing. So the affordability side of things is very, very difficult to do. If developers want to make a spread per square foot, you can't blame them for it. I mean, they just want and actually you know, if I look at some of the obviously we try not to name names in the podcast, so I'm not going to but there's a few developers in Vancouver that have made the skyline absolutely stunning. They've done beautiful work and defined the city and you know, there, there, it seems as though there's doesn't seem to be a lot of, I think. When do you think that speculation and trying to make money off real estate all the time is just the main issue here, because it becomes such an economy?

Speaker 2:

I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I think we we went through a period of time when there was high speculation and just you know, land and people like you've got to get your offer in and no conditions and yeah um, and I feel that that's kind of level set a little bit From my perspective is that we're trying to be creative, we're trying to bring in new forms of development that will make the city better around the multiplex that we brought in last year, where we thought we'd only get 100 applications in a year, and now we have over 390 in stream. So it's things like that that. I think, will just enhance the city and make it better and give more opportunities for different kinds of housing for people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, we now have this being in a time where we're all looking to get as much out of the same as possible. The problem is, the same has changed. It's not the same anymore. You know, years ago you wouldn't have known that apple's a three trillion dollar company it's true okay, we used to talk about being a multi-millionaire, now it's a billionaire. Okay, if you go 10, 15 years down the road, it's going to be 2000 bucks a square foot everywhere because Apple's $3 trillion Everything keeps moving up. Butter's $9.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I know, I grew up in the city of Vancouver so I've seen it change over time and there are things that, oh no, it'll never get higher, it'll never change. The city skyline will stay the same. And just the amount of change that's happened, especially in the last, I'd say, 20 years, 20 years yeah.

Speaker 1:

Is substantial and just beyond what I ever imagined. Yeah, yeah, 20 years, yeah, like that. I think you know the investment in I don't know. We're sort of getting off track in terms of you know what, what you do, but I think it it's all um, it's all collate, it's all correlated in terms of where the pressure happens. You get pressure from your office because people are trying to squeeze something out of out of very little right, and it puts a lot of pressure on you guys. It's time, it's money, it's like I need to get that done, that's all. It's money, it's like I need to get this done, and that's all because everyone's trying to get something very quickly and there's a lot of pressure around that.

Speaker 1:

If we were as productive and salaries like you know, I have a team in the US and I have a team in Canada the salaries aren't the same. Why? It's because we don't get as much done. We wish we would, but it's just not the case. So I think that, having this shared self-esteem of the city of Vancouver, I think it's low on morale in general. I hear it all the time I can't make money in Vancouver, it's not a serious business city, blah, all that stuff. I mean there's all the people coming from overseas. They just sit here. No one goes to their apartments.

Speaker 1:

Like I look at apartments, they're all dark yeah I live in a nice area, but it's all dark down there. I'm like what does?

Speaker 2:

anybody live here?

Speaker 1:

it's crazy and and you know the there's been all of these programs that have gone in place and et cetera, for in order to have, you know, to mitigate that. But it's, yeah, it, as I said, everything is correlated to the pressure that you guys have to deal with. So, from it comes from digital transformation, it comes to efficiencies, bottlenecks. Everyone blames everything, every problem.

Speaker 2:

On the city. Yeah, well, they do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, and I think that you know, we've got a lot of this isn't with the city of Vancouver in terms of, you know, planning and licensing, but I think the city's got a lot of growing up to do and licensing, but I think the city's got a lot of growing up to do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I feel that in the last few years, the work that is underway and continues to be underway is going to come to fruition, where it will be highlighted more broadly. It's like you know, you got to do all that behind the scenes work first before you can then promote the thing you know. And then, even with our new general manager of planning, he's doing some fantastic work on that side of the house too. So you know he's doing the rezoning and the city plans, and then you know we're really working on efficiencies in permitting and streamlining things that way. And then, just you know, you speak a bit to. You know people are leaving the city and we're. You know we've also done business licensing in my portfolio too, and we've done a ton of work in that area as well, just so people can get their licenses almost right away. There's no backlog anymore and we digitized all of that work.

Speaker 1:

So everything's online, do you? Great, that's good to hear. Oh, yeah, I, I know it comes. It's so easy to do. Yeah, now it is. It's like oh, good job on that. Very well done.

Speaker 2:

You used to be a bit of a pain in the ass, yeah you used to have to come in paper everything, and now it's like all online, super quick. Yeah, pay a credit card done.

Speaker 1:

This has been super great. Thank you very much for your service. On behalf of everyone in Vancouver, thank you for doing a great job. Thank you for sitting with me. I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for the invitation. Yeah, I know I got sort of in the weeds in a multifaceted conversation, but I think everything is, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

It is.

Speaker 1:

All right. Well, it would be nice to have you again, maybe in the studio and chat again, and sometimes we have a glass of wine and do that. I don't know if you're allowed to do that in your city time, but Maybe after hours. Maybe after hours. That's the right conversation. This is why you're a professional. Okay, corey? Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time and enjoy the show.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks for the conversation.

Speaker 1:

Okay, Thank you. Well, that does it for another episode of the Site Visit. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. You can also sign up for our monthly newsletter at sitemaxsystemscom slash the site visit, where you'll get industry insights, pro tips and everything you need to know about the Site Visit podcast and Sitemax, the job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and beyond. Sitemax is also the engine that powers this podcast. All right, let's get back to building.