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The SiteVisit
Leadership in construction with perspective from the job site. A podcast dedicated to the Construction industry. Construction professionals, General Contractors, Sub trade Contractors, and Specialty Contractors audiences will be engaged by the discussions between the hosts and their guests on topics and stories. Hosted James Faulkner ( CEO/Founder - SiteMax Systems ).
The SiteVisit
Redefining Construction: Culture, Careers, and Community with Antje Wilson, General Manager of the British Columbia Construction Roundtable
Curious about how cultural perceptions shape the construction industry? Join us as Antje Wilson, General Manager of the British Columbia Construction Roundtable and vice chair of the North Vancouver School Board, shares her unique perspective on reshaping the image of construction careers. Discover how language and cultural narratives can influence career identities, especially in trades and blue-collar work. Let's talk about how we can redefine these roles and foster an environment where everyone feels valued and inspired to contribute.
Explore the evolving landscape of career paths and how education plays a pivotal role in guiding young minds. We'll take a closer look at the balance between traditional university routes and skills-based learning, emphasizing the importance of foundational skills like punctuality and perseverance. With personal stories and engaging discussion, we'll unveil the strides being made to create inclusive work environments, particularly through the increasing presence of women in construction.
The construction industry is not just about bricks and mortar; it’s about community and collaboration. We'll highlight the mental health challenges faced within this sector, and the importance of addressing these issues head-on. Hear about initiatives like those from Josh Vitale in Chandler, Arizona, focusing on mental health and suicide prevention. As we wrap up, we reflect on the unexpected connections and shared insights that make this journey worthwhile, inviting you to stay connected and informed through our podcast community.
PODCAST INFO:
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So where'd you come in from today?
Speaker 2:North Vancouver.
Speaker 1:North Van. Mm-hmm. Love North Van. I grew up on the North Shore. Oh okay, Did you grow up there too?
Speaker 2:I did not.
Speaker 1:Where'd you come from?
Speaker 2:I was born in the Netherlands.
Speaker 1:The Netherlands, yeah, I migrated as a kid. Oh, what age.
Speaker 2:At nine.
Speaker 1:Me too.
Speaker 2:Get out.
Speaker 1:Nine from England? Yeah, no pretty nice. Well, it wasn't as ritzy back then.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:This is like the 80s early 80s Still beautiful it was. It was Glenmore it was called. It was like the ghetto side of the British properties is what they called it.
Speaker 2:Okay come on, and the reason was because they had-. There was a British in the name.
Speaker 1:No, there was three triplexes behind the school. Okay. Yeah and yeah. So it was called Glenmore and it was kind of a yeah, not as ritzy as the others. You basically went up this one street and the left-hand side was all the big houses and the right-hand side, past a certain area, was called Glenmore and it wasn't as a but now it's still.
Speaker 2:I was going to say.
Speaker 1:It's ritzy now.
Speaker 2:Wrong side of the tracks in West Van didn't know. Yeah, I know it's tough to believe, tough to believe.
Speaker 1:So for everyone listening like West Vancouver and Vancouver, here is a ritzy area of. Vancouver. It's very expensive. The North Shore, typically, is now yes, but yeah, so pretty cool. So that's the Netherlands is where you get your Anja name from Anja Wilson, though I guess you're married into that name.
Speaker 2:I'm married. Yes, I gotcha.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you got the Western. Yes, he's a Scottish-Irish descent oh perfect, yes, okay, his grandma and his mom.
Speaker 1:That's cool, all right. So we're going to talk about some cool stuff today and we've dipped into this many times in this podcast about construction, the brand of construction, how people see it, the cultural stuff around it. It's pretty sticky because it's one of those topics where it's like the underbelly of the fire of the reasons why people go to work, why would they want to get into the industry, all the motivations of different types of people and the fact we need so many jobs. We're trying to decode this and figure what's going on here, like how can we level set this not to sound too construction-y, but how do we level set this to get it to so everyone can sort of be on the same page, have conversations that are real conversations rather than ones that are kind of just surface, and I think that that's something that the industry has sort of danced around with and nobody wants to have the hard conversations that go on.
Speaker 1:but I find that you kind of need to peel back the onion layers and get to the core of why, psychologically, people think construction is something different than it really is. Perhaps it has some stigma around it to some people. So we're going to talk about all that stuff, so what?
Speaker 2:do you think about that, James? That seems pretty wishy-washy. What are you trying to say there?
Speaker 1:Oh, you watch.
Speaker 2:We'll get into it.
Speaker 1:It's not wishy-washy. Okay, all right, so let's air the laundry shall we yes, let's do it.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Site. Visit Podcast Leadership and perspective from construction with your host James Falkner. Construction with your host James Falkner. Business as usual, as it has been for so long now that it goes back to what we were talking about before and hitting the reset button. You know you read all the books, you read the email, you read Scaling Up, you read Good to Great. You know I could go on. We've got to a place where we found the secret serum. We found the secret potion. We can get the workers in. We know where to get them.
Speaker 2:Once I was on the job site for a while and actually we had a semester concrete and I recorded, like a Korean-Finnish patio out front of the site show these days.
Speaker 1:I was down in Dallas and a guy just hit me up on LinkedIn out of the blue and said he was driving from Oklahoma to Dallas to meet with me because he heard the Favour Connect platform on your guys' podcast. Home of the Crusher from. London, and we celebrate these values every single day. Let's get down to it, anja hello. Hi so great to have you here.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me, James.
Speaker 1:So BC Construction Roundtable. So this is. I've had a few guests on from your organization. So it's sort of like a volunteer-ish kind of thing, because you guys were Well, I'm the only paid person. So you're the only paid person? Yeah, because most other people weren't.
Speaker 2:That's right, I'm the general manager, okay, and I have a great volunteer board. Great and so it is made up of 16 construction professionals. Yeah. And they are very knowledgeable. They're fantastic. The current executive team is Harvey Boutelar he's the president, but he's also the global director at Hatch Okay. And Jess Percy he's our treasurer and he's the VP at Flatiron. And Brad Gunaslank he's the current regional director at Parmerlo. So I have very experienced people around me.
Speaker 1:That's cool, okay, yeah. And then on the other side, you do you're part of the BC education, I am Okay, so take us through that, take us through your position there.
Speaker 2:So I'm also the vice chair of the North Vancouver School Board, and our district has 17,000 students. We have 32 schools and we're currently building a brand new school in the lower Lonsdale area, and we also have many small capital projects and maintenance projects on the go, as you can well imagine with 32 schools.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's all in North Van.
Speaker 2:It's all in North Van.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a lot of schools.
Speaker 2:We actually also have Chequemus, which is by Squamish. So, we have another property as well that we have to take care of Near Squamish.
Speaker 1:you have to deal with that. You got to hop over Westman and boot up the highway.
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of children in the whole region go to Chequemus for their outdoor education.
Speaker 3:Oh, right, yeah, so it's our outdoor education program. Oh, gotcha, and it's been fantastic.
Speaker 1:So many good narratives Like the old Trek kind of thing. Do you remember those?
Speaker 2:Yes, but no. Trek, I think, is Vancouver Okay but it's that kind of thing though. Yeah, I think so. No, it's very different, because this is for elementary students.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, yeah, that was high school stuff, yeah yeah, so it's yeah, and then we have leadership teams from our high school, and so it's a well-rounded program and different types of programs are on offer. But the reason why I bring it up is that I'm seeing firsthand the impact on our operating budget. So that's actually money that's supposed to be for the classroom getting pulled out of the classroom to pay for all these infrastructure projects and for all this aging infrastructure that we have.
Speaker 1:Interesting Okay, nice Okay, for all this aging infrastructure that we have. Interesting Okay, nice Okay. And so you're a very special person to talk to some of these, about some of these subjects, because of the different pools that you're in. So you're getting to talk about construction in general and then you also see the education side.
Speaker 1:You kind of see, like this cultural side of you know what kids think, what their parents think. You hear the word trades and the parents are like what Trades? No, no, no, no, my kid's going to university. That whole thing, yes, you've seen that.
Speaker 2:Yes, but it's definitely changed. So it's definitely changed in the last 10 years, for sure, and I still think there's a lot to do with culture. I mean, I have three children that are Gen Z and, you know, had to ask them kind of we go like, why did you choose what you chose? And actually have you heard about this tool belt generation? Did you guys know that you're labeled as a tool belt generation? And they actually had not heard that word? But so in the district, in the Northcouver school district, we do have a lot of career programs that are focused on the trades and we have a trade fair and last this february, february 1st, we had a trade fair and it was a full house.
Speaker 2:We had so many so many families and we have a lot of support from the local industry. There's a lot of construction uh companies that come out and associations that come out, including the VCRA, and they will put on programs for the kids where they can.
Speaker 1:Discover kind of what their interest is Exactly. That's great.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. I don't see this like don't do the trades attitude, but it's still culture and it's still what do your parents do? So when I talk to the trades teacher, it's like kids are coming from homes where they haven't played around with the tools. They don't see mom and dad doing the do-it-yourself type projects and they don't see dad fixing the car, so they don't come with those basic skills. Let's say that young people had 40 years ago, when it was just expected that you knew how to change your oil or change a tire, all those kind of things I don't want to say.
Speaker 2:Especially on the North Shore, there are probably, I would think, statistically more folks that went to university and have pursued more health professionals, technical professional, versus going into the trades and have phoned somebody to paint their house and fix whatever they need.
Speaker 1:In some areas you have a lot of immigration who have come to Vancouver with a lot of money and that's a completely different deal, and they come over because they want the kids to go to university here. The whole move of the immigration was for a new life and perhaps you know, I know the North Shore has a lot of people who have come from Iran over the years, who wanted to get away from the regime back in the late 70s. Yeah, right, so, and for that different life, for the life that Iran used to be. It used to be, like, you know, the south of France of Middle East, right and now not now south of France, of Middle East, right and now, not now.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot of people here who have wanted to come for that extra light, that sort of uptick in their life, for instance, and the opportunity. So I think that we have seen things change. So let's just clarify this tool, belt generation, because I don't want anybody to think that I coined it. I heard this. One of my favorite podcasts is the All In podcast, and very rarely do they talk about construction, the path of the traditional university. You know post-secondary dream, if you will, hey, I'm going to go to university. We're seeing the degradation of what those diplomas or certificates or graduations, what those actually mean now. They don't necessarily mean you're guaranteed a six-figure job, Whereas it used to be. It used to be you were pretty much, once you had a university degree you could go get a job somewhere, but now it's like everyone has one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do think that was a long time ago and I think you have to remember that construction is a very large sector. There's so many roles engineering architecture being two of them that do require university, and even financial controller management, project management those they are big jobs and do require that type of background, and you're still in the construction, you're still building things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think and I've said this before is that people who are how would I say? How would I say? I would say not malignantly ignorant, just ignorant because it's not paying attention, just like not noticing or conscious about a construction job. All they see is dirty people with dirt all over their clothes, walking around, having to go to the washroom in a blue box And-.
Speaker 2:I just don't see it that way. Where do you see that?
Speaker 1:That's what people see who are these people, the parents to the kids, see what I'm saying. They see the lowest common denominator of a small job perhaps or it's the early days in, you know, when they're shot creating a wall or shoring up a wall. It is messy Especially when you dig down you know 70 feet. It's kind of ugly down there right. So you got-.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's also satisfying building something, cleaning things up.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, Anja, first of all, I'm on your side here, I'm just.
Speaker 1:I advocate for people to get in construction, fyi. But what I'm? I am trying to steel man where they come from and the ignorance. They just drive by. They don't, they're not even paying attention. All they do is that they go by a job site. Yeah, and they're stuck in the old ways of well, if everything doesn't work out, I guess you go to a job site and ask for a job, can I sweep the site or something like that. That's how, that's how it used to be. Sweep the site or something like that. That's how it used to be. So now what we're seeing is because technology which I'm in the technology part of construction, that is where everything gets very interesting. Jobs are getting less dirty every day, less dangerous and less dull. I agree.
Speaker 1:So they're becoming more exciting and more exciting and more exciting. And, to add to what you said, there's all these career paths for all of these things that people don't understand, the broad base of possibility for construction Exactly, careers yes, so there's tons. So, as a matter of fact, I was sitting with one of our venture capital partners at dinner last night at the ICBA event yes, and Sanjeev was sitting there and Scott from Groundbreak Ventures were there and they do prop tech investments and we were talking about this. And because there was a speaker that was talking about it at one of the events yesterday and Scott said he's like you know, he thinks it's the entire lexicon and language that we use around the industry are old terms that have stigma to the words, not necessarily what they represent, but just the words They've been so loaded with.
Speaker 1:Like I always think of this when you there's this, you know it's not really a theory, but like when your brain recalls something, it's basically like double-clicking on a folder, right, and it brings it into your attention. That's how your memory works. So when you double-click on that folder, you have a whole bunch of emotional associations that are attached to that folder you're clicking on. That folder might say trades, let's say so. Somebody might click on that when they hear trades or they hit or the word blue collar, which is terrible, the whole blue collar thing. It's like where did that come from? That came from the factory workers right who had to wear blue overalls, and that was the blue collar. Okay.
Speaker 1:As opposed to a white collar, like you hear, white collar crime, which is, like you know, which is bad. Which is terrible, which is like fraud in the stock market, all that kind of stuff, right yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So, but I think what he was saying is the whole lexicon around the words. You know, language is very important and you've seen this, you know we've got this, these things going on culturally these days. We'd like to label things, we have to stick a stamp on it go, that's called that and that means this. And I think that when someone says, hey, I'm in the trades, what does that mean? Not to other people in the trades? Because I don't think that that's what people care about.
Speaker 1:They care about what it means to the general public as their own identity, as their own identity, the identity part. So I think you kind of hear where I'm going with. This is how it dovetails with youth. Youth is all about-.
Speaker 2:It's culture and what's hip and cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what it means, to what your identity is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I was at, like I said, I started this podcast with talking to my kids like, so what do you think? And my my youngest she's still into that kardashian lifestyle in the middle wanted to be a soccer star, yeah, and my eldest is an artist. So yet my eldest works with she did take all the shop classes because she loves building things. So she has a very artistic mindset but loves to work with her hands.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And my middle is now a data analyst, so he's doing a lot of work with data and research, and my youngest is actually applying for BC in carpentry. She really likes being outside, working with her hands and being physical, so they're finding their way. But it's, you know, now in their 20s in carpentry she really likes being outside, working with her hands and being physical, so they're finding their way, but it's, you know, now in their twenties, in Gen Z, versus in their teenage and growing up it was a different story. Because culturally, you want to be a movie star, you want to be a sports star, because or you want to be a musician because that is what is idolized in our culture.
Speaker 1:That's very, very true. I would also say that your kids are I don't know them at all, never seen them but you're a very grounded person and you're probably a very good parent, so you, probably your kids, are the golden version of kids out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they are, they're fantastic. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know. They're interesting, they're good.
Speaker 1:So we have the entire.
Speaker 2:But I think the kids in North, the 17,000 kids in North Vancouver, they're also great, they're finding their way. But the biggest impact that you can do is you know you as an education system, we put the opportunities out there. We have great programs for for the trades and for kids to uh, you know, work a day on site and they there's opportunities in the our community and the community of earth. Man is great like they're there, like they're very the businesses, chamber of Commerce, both very welcoming and inviting to have children participate and try things out and be exposed at least. So there's.
Speaker 2:I don't really get a sense that we as a school district are putting down career choices. We just really want people to students to find what they like to do, find where they feel valued and feel like they can contribute, because at the end of the day, you know that's where they can really grow as individuals. When they get into something and just you really get, you can feel proud of your work. When you do the re-editive type of stuff, you know like when you first bang a hammer or build something, it's not going to be that great. You've got to have that gumption of trying again and again so it gets better. So you need to find that staying power and even with job sites it's. Can you show up on time so that you can be trained, because those initial steps of you just have to get up and show up on time. Those are huge skills already.
Speaker 1:Yeah, A lot of that generation is late right.
Speaker 2:No, no, you have a really bad perspective.
Speaker 1:No, it's just what. My daughter, my daughter's 16. She's like everyone's late all the time, late for school. It's weird, okay, weird, maybe we're experiencing.
Speaker 2:Where is your kid going to school Downtown?
Speaker 1:Nothing weird. I just think it's kind of yeah, I mean, we all live in our perception of how things are and I think that we need there's going to be different stratas of experiences that lots of different parents have, kids have, et cetera. You know, I think that the cool thing that construction does help with is the it's like a meritocracy in its essence. Like you either look behind you and when you leave the job site, you either build that thing or you didn't. There's no, like subjective opinion around if it's there or not.
Speaker 2:It's either there or not. Objective yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's a cool thing, because I think there's a lot of things now that the value is subjective. And, yeah, the cool thing is you either showed up, you built the thing or you didn't, or you planned to build the thing, or your plans were drawn, or your BIM model was finished or your schedule was done.
Speaker 1:Execution is powerful. It's real. It is real. Yeah, so I think that we are so the Gen Z generation. Let's just chat about them a little bit. I find so feedback from my daughter is is that the guys in her school are all not having any of it. They're like I don't, this is all bs, all the stuff the school is making me do this, make me do all. I don't want any of it. This is the underbelly of what she tells me. They're like super into I don't want to get into politics, so I'm not going to say, but they are. A lot of them are in the camp of the ones of people that you'd be surprised of who they like.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're actually. They actually care about politics.
Speaker 1:No, they're all fully right wing. Oh Like it's crazy. But they care about politics. No, they're all fully right wing. Oh Like it's crazy.
Speaker 2:But they care about politics. I didn't think students cared.
Speaker 1:They do because it's everywhere on YouTube, right? I mean it's everywhere, but there we go again.
Speaker 2:It's the culture, it's the culture. It's the digital visual, what they see every day, so they have something to talk about.
Speaker 1:Exactly, but it's something to hang their identity on. It's like you know, when kids are young, they always want to be extreme right.
Speaker 2:It's always like hey, I want to be confrontational, I want to be, I would say, some kids. You're very absolutist.
Speaker 1:I know I like it.
Speaker 2:I don't, but it's not true. It's like a gradient of folks out there, it is, it is.
Speaker 1:It is definitely a yeah, everything's in the gray, yeah, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2:Does your school have a shop of any sort? Yes, they do oh okay, good, so they're exposed. That's fantastic. I think it went well there actually Good yeah. I do think students enjoy making things. There's a great satisfaction in making things. There's a lot of frustration too, but there's satisfaction too. Yeah, there's a great satisfaction in making things.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of frustration too, but there's satisfaction too. Yeah, it's interesting, like the absolutist observation. I haven't heard that before and I would agree with you on that, because what I try and do is I try and use critical thinking and factor-based thinking and it does seem that way. But if you keep digging down, you do get to first principles. It does seem that way, but if you keep digging down you do get to first principles, and it just seems like very absolutist at the conclusion of the generalization at the top, yeah, but as you dig down it's like pretty justified.
Speaker 2:Now, that's social media out there. I mean, I hope now that we have this bell to bell no cell phones, no digital tools. That's fantastic. Kids want to. Kids need to actually not just kids. Everyone. Human, everyone. We need relationships. We need in-person relationships. Yeah, we do.
Speaker 2:And having that phone in the it's so distracting it's. You can't develop a relationship when you're constantly looking at the phone and now, with all the filters, what you see is is not real. There's so much misinformation and so tying your identity to something that's not truthful, that's going to mess with your psyche. And and that's what your teen years and your twenties are all about is developing your personal self, and and you don't need that distraction you need your buddies to hang out with, you need a crew of people to build things and play.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah, so which is what we used to do well, we like you and I remember this thing called being bored.
Speaker 2:Remember that yes, and not having anything. I still think kids are bored, but now it's with this device, it's.
Speaker 1:It's really quite it's bored, but with input, which is weird exactly exactly it, exactly, it's weird. So strange. Do you remember sort of being in your room and you're like, okay, I call all my friends, no one's available to go out, no. And then okay, I mean I used to like draw.
Speaker 2:I like books, I read, oh, you read. Okay, yeah, or music.
Speaker 1:I used to like listen to music or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's kind of interesting. So we've got some little notes here that when we do these podcasts we're like, hey, what are we going to talk about? So it was kind of like these sort of themes. So what do you think about this change in the post-education path? Do you think has there been any conversation around university? Maybe, if you're going to narrow, cast your focus and just say, look, I'm gonna go and be this thing, specific, like for the like outcome-based education, like I don't want to be like super, super, uh, obvious, but like things like you know, I'm gonna be a doctor or I'm going to be a lawyer, these are the old things.
Speaker 1:But they're very specific.
Speaker 2:They're very specific and it's what we know, right? It's what we see on TV. There's lots of lawyer shows. There's lots of policemen, firemen, doctor, Grey's Anatomy, ER that is where we get as children, we get our information. Oh, that looks really cool. These people are way cooler than my mom and dad, Right, You're?
Speaker 1:all good looking too.
Speaker 3:Yes, and young, and they have all these things, george Clooney, in fact.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is where they draw their information and, as the public education system has to offer alternatives and parents have to offer alternative lives, and then and let children explore those different opportunities and they'll find something that fit, I'm a huge in believer that you can actually do both. I mean, if what university and college programs can offer is that those critical thinking skills that are very important, and emotional awareness and just thinking with your frontal cortex, you know and then what these tickets can offer you is the confidence that you have a skill to offer, so you can do both. There's nothing wrong with being able to do both and that will give you that will stretch your career path for until you're very old.
Speaker 1:So I was thinking that.
Speaker 2:Because there's a shortage in foremen too, and you need to have those critical thinking skills and emotional intelligence to connect and build a good team as a foreman.
Speaker 1:Well, if you are successful in any kind of degree or you know, just to say, college or university, forget about construction for a second just in general. Yeah, in order to do that, you have to be disciplined. Yes.
Speaker 1:You have to be on time, yeah, you have to be respectful, you have to get along with people from all different areas. So you're socializing in that way. You have to make sure that that is not a distraction from your core purpose of being in college. To get your degree, to get a good grade, you have to manage. Let's say you're living on campus. You've got to manage a new lifestyle. That's kind of like living on your own out of the house. You've got to manage like, oh, I got to cook now or I got to manage my money because I want to go out and eat every night.
Speaker 1:There's these life skills that I think go along with this college experience that might, if you end up with a sociology degree, maybe the only value was the fact you actually it was that second post-teenager lifestyle that gave you the value that you could actually have a controlled life so that you can actually have something that you can and that you could do anything from there, because you've learned the skills of timing, work, ethic, execution, playing by the rules. I guess you know those kind of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, though I do think the social sciences have more value than just that. No, I'm just Wow so harsh.
Speaker 1:It's just a lot of those.
Speaker 2:They might be, but we're actually talking about that. The cultural impact of how people make decisions and that is what sociology looks at, is and anthropology is like is how culture impacts us. Like we all think we're our own islands and we make our decisions with and because it's our decisions, but that's really not the case. We, we are influenced by our surroundings and by the way our um, the structures around us. You know, political science is all about how, uh, the, the institutions are impacting our decisions, and then sociology is how culture makes impacts our decisions. So to have an aware awareness of how we're impacted is it is good to know yeah, honestly.
Speaker 1:I mean there's a comedy around it to some degree. I guess I heard this one guy Again, wow, again, no, no, no, no. There was this. I forget who it was. This scientist guy is like hey, if it says science at the end of it, it's not a real science.
Speaker 3:Ugh Sure, I know it's funny, it's funny gosh, I know, I know it's funny.
Speaker 1:It's funny though.
Speaker 2:The scientific method. I mean, I think that is what they still use. Right Is they have a hypothesis and then test the hypothesis?
Speaker 1:No, it was like a title. If it's political science, not a real science, if it's social science, not a real science, I guess it's science as in, like physics, chemistry, never mind, chemistry, never mind um. So let's, so, can we talk about your um?
Speaker 1:you realize, I have a master's in political science, right? I'm getting the sense. This is good, I love it. Um. So, in in terms of um, can we talk about like the distribution of, like women in construction? We've seen a huge boom of that and you were saying your daughter, right? So she's like wants to use her hands. She's like she's kind of into that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Actually both the girls, I mean. Being an artist, my oldest really works with her hands as well. She did textile design at what was then called Ryerson, so she sews and makes stuff. What was then called Ryerson, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so she sews and makes stuff all the time Ryerson, toronto, yeah, yeah, nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all three ended up there somehow.
Speaker 1:Crazy, which is now TMU. Yes, yes, yes, yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:So with your, but with the youngest she is definitely interested and I think because she did a lot of landscaping so she's familiar with working on crews.
Speaker 2:She actually liked just the physical aspect of it and working with different generations. She thought that actually gave an interesting perspective of her day of these folks that have done it for a very long time. And, yeah, she heard some interesting stories on the job site that kept her interested in that field. But she's also interested she's come to some of my BCCR events and there's a lot of construction lawyers out there and so she's actually going to study for our LSAT. So there's so many opportunities in construction that I think people are just not aware of and I think it's building an awareness and it's hard because we are competing with, you know, grey's Anatomy, er, kardashians and all those other cultural icons on both social media and TV.
Speaker 1:We need to like start a new show like the Constructashians.
Speaker 2:Exactly Something exactly. I think that would be really good for the construction industry.
Speaker 1:Not a parody, but you know We'll have big, big, big, hard hats on instead of anyway. So let's just talk just a little bit about I'm always interested in. So I've got my daughter and my wife at home, got no other boys but me. So it's, and my wife's a very, very real, realist, realist, realist kind of person, but very kind, and she would be like, yeah, you know, I would just never want to do construction. I'm like why she goes too dirty too. I'm kind of girly. I'm like, oh okay, so is that a thing? Like I asked her, is that a thing? She's like yeah, I like makeup, I like. So it's interesting that, like I wonder, I'm almost curious to know what impact that the quote-unquote like super femininity or whatever. What do you call that? What would you as a woman, what would you call that? Like that whole flowery, girly, girly, what? Is that. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'm't know, flowery, girly, girly, what is that? I don't know, I'm not that, but I don't, I don't. You can be that, maybe not on a job site, but there's just so many opportunities Like, let's just get back to that that there's opportunities in construction, and your wife has a very limited view of what a person in the construction sector is.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, that's not what I'm getting at. What? I'm getting at is I'm wondering if the interest, like the narrow interest of saying no, no, no, I'm girly girl and just like I'm not interested, like is that? I'm just asking if that's because everything's a factor. Yes, and you know we can't just like say, say oh, let's not talk about that, because because it's real.
Speaker 2:It is real, and, and so um like I'm sure I'll just get.
Speaker 1:Let me just give you an example of like I just want to just make sure, like I'm covering this and and it's not sounding so I'm sure, uh, it doesn't mean that if you're in construction you're not. Not that, that's not what I'm saying, because you can be anything Right, so you could be girly girl and build things and all that. And when you're even girly girl on the job site, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm just saying that. Does the traditional female ascension through identity from being a child, traditional female ascension through identity from being a child? Does some of that preclude the? I'm going to go into this like I'll give an example, so like, let's say, pool players?
Speaker 2:people. James, you sound like a sociologist.
Speaker 1:Nice, I like that like if you were to say, like the the word playing pool, let's say, yeah, yeah, like billiards. Well, there's not a lot of girls want to go and hang out in a smoky bar and hang out with a bunch of guys and play pool. That's why there's not a lot of professional pool players in the distribution on the top, because it's just not of an interest in the environment. It makes sense. There's less in the top of the funnel for that distribution, which totally makes sense, the funnel for that distribution, which totally makes sense. So the question is is that are we dealing with a smaller pool of females just generally interested on a broad basis in construction?
Speaker 1:And is that something we have to change is my point.
Speaker 2:So there's definitely been a lot of work on trying to change that.
Speaker 2:I mean, 40 years ago UBC had, you know, two females in engineering, yeah, and now it's 25% of the undergraduate engineering classes are female. So there definitely is something to be said. Says there's somebody you know that looks like you is pursuing a career, so you and you want to be like that person, so you feel comfortable going in that direction and pursuing a career. So you and you want to be like that person, so you feel comfortable going in that direction and pursuing that career. Um, so it is in that way. I think women are more confidently pursuing non-traditional careers. But it takes time yeah, no, totally.
Speaker 1:It takes time just to just to preface something. I just, you know, being living with my daughter, I am so pro women in general. So, like, for instance, my favorite like politician now is Danielle Smith. I think she's an incredible woman, absolutely strong, feminine like, but just a powerhouse like can stand on the world stage and that to me, is like so impressive. And so I think that I mean, regardless of whatever political party she's part of, just as a business person or leader, just very, very strong. And you know, janine, another example, right, and you know right and I think that that is a great thing that because there is going to be changes there's always changes in culture it's just it's a totally fluid, nebulous like it's going to keep moving, it never is just stuck. So, but I think that we are in construction, we want to. So can I just ask you? I saw something in the news about there's going to be mandated like flushing toilets.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, yeah, that's something that is a thing right, like if Well, making a better construction site is not just for female, it's for everybody. It's nice to go to the bathroom in a warm place where you can wash your hands.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:Versus a port-a-party so.
Speaker 1:It is. Yeah, I mean, men do just typically go in like, well, when you have to, you have to.
Speaker 2:But I don't think they like it.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying they do either, you know, but they will deal with it.
Speaker 2:This is an easy. When you can make a job site better for everyone, it's just better for everyone.
Speaker 1:That's true, yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 2:I don't even know why it took so long, just because it was a few. You know dollars and cents. But come on, Well, it is About time.
Speaker 1:It is kind of interesting because, you know, when we talk about the dollars and cents, yeah, it comes down to the. Unless you're dealing with government projects, it comes down to the developer's wallet.
Speaker 2:Everything's the developer's wallet, yeah, and I would think with government infrastructure projects. You know, at the end of the day, politicians it is our wallet and politicians have to, you know, get approval from the voters every four years or so, and so but those like flushing toilets.
Speaker 1:yes, it's a. The developer is going to be like okay, well, now my bill from the GC is this much more money. Yeah, that money has to come from somewhere. Yeah. It is not. It's not free.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1:The result will be great, but it will feel for a while more money for the same is what it will feel like to the developers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think it's for the same, because what you're getting is it isn't for the same, it will feel like it's for the same on their bottom line.
Speaker 1:That's all it will feel like.
Speaker 2:But maybe you get better satisfaction from the worker and they have a higher output, and voila. There you go Easy peasy. Easy, decision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, it's an easy decision, as you say. You know, would you call me an absolutist? I just love conversation.
Speaker 1:I like talking about things and getting into the stuff, even if you're like what, but that's the cool part about it. Like what, but it's, that's the cool part about it. Um, so just a little bit more on the, on the uh, what are some of the most popular new things that uh, you're seeing women want to get involved. Like, what areas of construction are you seeing like, yeah, big inflow uh, I don't know, I don't have those expertise okay. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, at our events we have a wide variety of folks gender, ethnicities and it's fantastic to have them all come and hear about what infrastructure projects are coming along. And it's project coordinators, consultants, engineers they're all wanting to be part of the big projects and they're excited to hear about them. So you know, it's whatever they think they can do to get on one of those jobs they will do. So yeah, I can't. I don't know what specifics that they.
Speaker 1:I would think the schools have a better understanding of that, Like what I've seen, you know in my tenure at SightMax and you know, going into the companies and just observing yeah, you have a lot of longstanding employees, females mostly in the controller department as in controlling the money, Not necessarily necessarily the accountants, but like the bookkeepers who are like writing the checks and getting getting to have a couple girlfriends and I have girlfriends in safety.
Speaker 2:Head of association safety. Yeah, yeah in hr, yeah, for sure um but I also have girlfriends that are engineers, so this is just an observation that I doesn't mean that's.
Speaker 1:What's happening now is just that those, those I can, I'm gonna, I can think of about you know half a dozen right off, like I'm not gonna say their names, but they are holding those companies together yeah yeah, without they know if they walk, like they know if they walk.
Speaker 2:It's the multitasking in us.
Speaker 1:Well, they're going to say, yeah, the place would be a mess, it would fall apart if that one person left. And it's kind of been interesting because we've seen this. We're in this huge generational shift right now. I've noticed that a lot of sub-trades for instance, when we talk about GCs and developers all the time, none of those are the sub-trades that show up at the job site to actually do a lot of the work. A lot of GCs actually don't actually do anything. It's all subbed out so all they're doing is coordinating the project.
Speaker 1:But the sub-trades that show up to do all of the work from digging, from excavation, all the way through finishing to the envelope all of these companies are all of these trade-specific people who came with a core talent and learned their specific division trade and they ended up with a company. They ended up with a company. So they started off just like doing maybe it was just doing roofing or something, or maybe it was just doing siding or something like that. And back 20 years ago you didn't need all this regulation, you didn't need to go. You just like hey, I know how to bend aluminum. Okay, I bought some machinery, we've known how to do it, and it's been this forever and then, before the advent of software, they've had these processes that they've been building over the years and they're inventions that are just totally obscure. And you go in there, you go, what is this? And they go, nope, that's what made us successful.
Speaker 1:And let's say Genevieve, who's been here for 20 years. Yep, she knows that sheet. It's got all the stuff in it, takes it every week, puts it in. I mean it's crazy, but the interesting thing is we're in this generational change right now where technology is uncuffing. It's allowing a lot of different people to be able to be part of the process, because you just log in, you can train online and you can figure it out. You don't have to be there for 20 years. So we're seeing a lot of opportunity there in this generational change, where the old guard's leaving and there's succession happening. That's why there's such opportunity right now for youth in construction both males, females, everybody to just come in and help. Now there was a stat that I read, and I think it was the National Post, that said when it comes to residential construction, we have more people than we have jobs right now because of permitting and interest rates.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would concur with that, it's crazy, right there's definitely a slowdown right now, just because of the cost. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's also, like, I think, vancouver specifically, you know, for those listening in other areas is that you know it's so expensive to live here. You know you have that expectation. It's like how are we going to like, what are your kids like when they move out? They're like rent's, like minimum two grand. Oh yeah. For something nice, you get to spend three grand.
Speaker 2:You know you're living with lots of other people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did you do that when you?
Speaker 2:Yes, I actually did, did you. I live with five other people and I went to University of Calgary and, yeah, oh, okay, but I mean after university though. After university yeah, I still lived with lots of people.
Speaker 1:Did you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1:I never had a roommate thing. I don't really, I made all my money myself by the way, yeah, me too, yeah, like I yeah, yeah, I moved in with my girlfriend, I think when I was 21. Okay, but that was no roommate situation.
Speaker 2:No, I had lots of roommates.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interesting. Okay, so can we just chat a little bit about the identity around? This is what I hear all the time. Okay, I go to these conventions and I hear about the opportunity of construction, how we've got to get people and how and it's always this theme of you can make good money and that's just like major theme. Yeah, and do you think that that's because it's so expensive here?
Speaker 2:That's the main theme. Well, I think there is especially actually for everybody. There is some practicality about when you go out to work, you want to maximize your time, and there is that dollar for time value, and so I think we all have a little bit about that calculation. Is this worth my time? But it's not going to be lasting if you're not into what you're doing. You have to enjoy the effort. You have to enjoy working with people, otherwise it's just not going to last.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean money might be a little bit of a. It is a draw, it's a security. I think we're all security conscious, yeah, but you have to have more than that, otherwise there's no staying power. And really, you know, the exciting jobs is when you get. But you have to have more than that, otherwise there's no staying power. And really, you know, the exciting job is when you get, or to me, like, when you get into positions of where you have some influence. It takes a long time, so I still think there's room for that. 20 years of 30 years putting in the effort.
Speaker 2:And the real value of putting in the time in a certain sector is the relationships that you build. And I still think we're humans, we really need those connections. And when you stay in a certain sector, you do build relationships and there's joy in having those relationships and they really being able to bounce off ideas and work with folks, I think gets you more excited to get out of bed because you want to help somebody, and so that being able to serve and being able to care for your fellow workers, I think there's a lot of value in that. So the initial draw might be some cash, but if those other things. If those are not important or you're not finding those, you're going to be leaving the industry.
Speaker 2:So that's why, if you do get the folks jumping in, there has to be value placed by the leadership on connecting people with people, on developing them, giving them training so they get to feel confident. Developing them, giving them training so they get to feel confident. Be nice and do put the heated bathrooms in the water flow, because making a job site a welcoming place and this goes back to you want the job site welcoming, but this is where the North Vancouver School District is we put a lot of emphasis on building each individual school like their own little community, their own little like. This is your community, this is yours. You got to find your own space and make it your own. Like there's both from the worker you have to put in the effort, the student has to put in the effort, but it's also there's around each of those worker and students. There has to be some level of like, an offer of belonging, like you belong here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. I mean you do get that in construction. I think that there's that overarching threat of danger on a job site that you do have to be tight as a community, because otherwise people get hurt.
Speaker 1:They want us to look out for each other tight as a community, because otherwise people get hurt. Because they want us to look out for each other, yeah, which is a good. It's a good microcosm to to be part of, because it seems like in the world right now everyone's out for themselves and on a construction site you can't be like that no, there's, there's safety and yeah, which is the kind of a cool thing, right?
Speaker 1:this is why I I keep saying this is like construction can save us culturally, honestly, because you think of all these things we're talking about, you have to trust in other people, you have to get along with people, you have to. There is an achievement piece to it, there is a meritocracy piece to it, there is a satisfaction piece to it. There is a satisfaction piece to it and I would say my only grievance that I have for people in construction right now and I'm not going to say it breaks my heart because it kind of sounds soft and I don't want to sound too soft but what kind of I find quite upsetting is when you see somebody working with their body, working very hard on, like, just a mediocre condo project let's say, not a high-end one, okay and they can't afford to buy one. Oh okay.
Speaker 1:So it'd be different if you could save up your money and be able, and you wouldn't have to be like a crazy saver, as in like eating noodles for five years in order to get a down payment, like that's almost what you have to do now. You almost can't. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Unless you got money from your parents, like you, in order to buy the $500,000 condo right, which is like a studio. Now it's going to be how much, you know? Whatever a square foot $800 a square foot, $1,000 a square foot because you want to live downtown. Maybe you like downtown or whatever that is. Even a North Van is expensive, right.
Speaker 1:It is expensive yeah, it is a little upsetting to know that I see, and I see the hard work going in and I say they have to leave the job site and go. I'll never be able to get one of those and that that to me is is kind of a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the government needs to do something there this is, this is and this is so the government, in terms of, if you work on a job site, let let's say, and you've worked on that project, maybe you can have some kind of a longer amortization or you can have some other kind of CMHC program involved, because you actually built it.
Speaker 2:Well, it would definitely be incentive to get workers on your job sites.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean though?
Speaker 2:No, I do know what you mean and if there's a shortage of those types of workers. I think there's always room for putting in incentives, but I don't know. Changing the whole economic structure just seems a bit unrealistic At the end of the day. There are still opportunities in this province to buy a house, maybe not downtown, but still in the region.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And this is where the government I do think has a value is building the infrastructure that it's easy to move around in Metro Vancouver. Yeah, and it'll take a while, because we're not there yet. It's still difficult to move around here in the lower mainland, oh, like highway systems, while because we're not there yet, it's still difficult to move around here in the lower mainland.
Speaker 1:Oh, like highway systems, you mean.
Speaker 2:Highway transit oh yeah, transit, yeah yeah Trains. There's a lot of….
Speaker 1:Trains. We have trains here.
Speaker 2:We have one West Coast Express, yeah, but I mean we can work to improve on those and to make mobility and moving around the region easier, so that you can afford a nice place and then still get to your work site on time, because transportation is not the issue and not holding you back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think we're on a good path right now. What do you think can be improved right now? What do you think we're sort of falling short in? Getting people into construction and basically the themes we've talked about today.
Speaker 2:Well, it's cost escalation for sure. It's just crazy how much things are costing, and a lot of that has to do with how little trust anybody has in each other. So we have all these permitting processes um that, that and all these different layers that any small construction job site takes a long time. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and that costs money. Because when you're tying up money, you're tying up machines and and then the expectation is that there's no risk to any project or that the contractor has to take up all all the risk on its own. It just causes um a lot of costs. That in the old days when you could just do a handshake and put some pavement and get a bike path going right, it was. It was not a fancy thing. It it was not a complicated uh project to put some pavement on the ground for bikes. But now it seems to be. Just building a sidewalk seems like such an onerous process. Yeah.
Speaker 2:With so many levels of government that it just costs a lot and it takes a lot of time and I don't think all those um, all those speed bumps need to be there.
Speaker 1:Right, no, I would agree. I would agree. Yeah, because that does create a lot of compression at the top and the bottom too. It adds stress to everything. Yeah. Because, if time is, if you have a group of people, here's me saying people again, but a group of people, does that sound better?
Speaker 2:Well, specifics are always good, Thanks.
Speaker 1:A group of people. So let's say, permitting yeah, okay, that are not necessarily in a rush. Everyone else is yeah, right, so and that's very difficult because the the stress of if you have a timeline and there's a big chunk in the middle, that's not in a rush and everyone else is, um, it's everyone. The people who are in a rush are not even in more of a rush, and it and it, and that becomes very expensive. You get more mistakes, you get more. Everyone's kind of like walking on pins and needles all the time with everything, and then the developer has a bunch of stress. The field workers have a lot of stress because it's coming down from the developer.
Speaker 2:Well, they're waiting. It's crazy.
Speaker 1:They're waiting and it's so expensive yeah.
Speaker 2:And you're tying up machines because you know you got this contract. You think you're going to start, but then it never seems to start.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and what do you think that does to the mental health on the job site? I mean it's….
Speaker 2:Well, you want to know you got a steady gig and that there's money coming in the door. And that's hard when things are on hold.
Speaker 1:Yeah well… so that's a good point, Like when they're on hold, like when people aren't making their hourly wage because the job's on hold, because they're waiting, they're waiting. Oh yeah, that's terrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:And then owners too.
Speaker 1:You know, sometimes they still need to pay out their workers but you know, I've been working with this guy named Josh Vitale. He's in Chandler, Arizona I don't know if this is like wait and he's got a nonprofit org that he's put up for mental health and construction and suicide prevention and I'm getting one of my design guys to help him do the brand for it and everything. Okay, and sort of pro bono from us, because I design guys to help him do the brand for it and everything. Okay.
Speaker 1:And sort of pro bono from us, because I really want to help in that way. But what we've talked about is kind of interesting of where there's obviously all the way from field who is actually producing the project all the way up through management, planning and then all the way up to the developer who's risking the money at the top. Okay, so that entire those different stratas, you see, of all of those different parts of the composition of a project and where mental health comes in and where it is kind of forgotten about, which I find very interesting. So let's say, you go into, you have the mental health of the field worker. Okay, it's hard on the body. Maybe there's a lot of stuff going on with opioids and all that because of pain management. All of those things can be very dangerous, especially in the US, with opioids and doctors just giving it out like M&Ms.
Speaker 1:But so there's a lot of talk around that mental health on the field level. But at what point do we not talk about that in other areas of construction? Like if you are a project manager who has a crazy amount of pressure the developer client is not the best one, let's say and they're being brutal, how does that person feel. And then on top of that, the developer at the top let's say the interest rate just changed or some other thing where they got called on a loan that took too long what about their mental health? So we have this entire stack where we're kind of only talking about it down here, where it goes all the way through, and when you talk about delays and permitting and all those things, it adds to all of that. So it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 2:And it's changes. I think that's really the real stress is, the rules are not consistent projects, it's not different municipalities different provinces.
Speaker 1:You just can't count on things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, moving targets Like businesses, are great. People are entrepreneurial and when you say this is how it needs to be done, business owners are figure it out and get it done. Yeah. But when the rules change halfway along the way or if standards change along the way, that's difficult to deal with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I mean, is this something at the roundtable you guys talk about all the time? Yes, that is what we talk about. Yeah, that's brutal.
Speaker 2:Right, the round table you guys talk about all the time. Yes, that is what we talk about. Yeah, that's brutal, right? Yeah, so that's. You know. We have three types of events at the BC Construction Roundtable and one of those roundtables is where we have peer-to-peer conversations on like how do you deal with this? What is your angle? What is best practice? When we learn from each other and they're fascinating and the folks that come out, we always have like a table moderator, a bit of a person that's a bit of an expert and a note taker, so we really try and listen to it and then we put a white paper together at the end of those conversations of what we hear. These are some best practices. So they're really valuable because people that come to these events, they give two hours of their time and really offer their experience and folks learn from each other. They're very satisfying to organize and for people to be so invested in making them successful. It's fantastic.
Speaker 1:That's a very good spokesperson for this. That's awesome, Okay. Well, it seems like we've kind of covered a lot of things here. Spokesperson for this. That's awesome, Okay. Well, it seems like we've kind of like covered a lot of things here. I thought that was. That was cool. You burned me a few times, which is great. I enjoyed that. Stood up to me like a Gen Xer. I like that. That's cool and we're cut from a different cloth.
Speaker 2:aren't we Our generation? Yeah, I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so anything you want to pass on to anybody. You just gave a great synopsis there of some of the things you do at Construction Roundtable, so anything else.
Speaker 2:Can I pitch some of our upcoming BCCR events so October 9th. So this is put on by our second group. It's the Emerging Leadership Group and they've been in the… October 9th so this is put on by our second group. It's the Emerging Leadership Group.
Speaker 1:Okay, and they've been in the October 9th, october 9th, next Wednesday.
Speaker 3:Okay, let's see if the podcast is out by then, oh, okay, it might be a couple of weeks, it might be too, early yeah.
Speaker 2:And so the Emerging Leaders Group. They are up and coming and they're trying to figure out, you know, how to level up, and they're also networking, and so the conversations are interesting in that they're more about development and leadership. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Whereas our breakfast event and our next one is October 17th and those have been our bread and butter. So Thursday mornings we're usually at Terminal City or the Vancouver Club and we get great panelists and presenters talking about important topics and there's a lot of decision makers in the room and we are completely nonpartisan. We're all about trying to get the constructor's point of view, the consultant's point of view and the owners of projects point of view.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's really from the perspectives of those three on issues. So the one that we've got coming up is on technology and AI and construction and the impact of that, how we're using it. And then the November 21st one is going to be about the BC Ferries infrastructure. So we have someone from BC Ferries talking about all their upcoming projects and, yeah, people can come and hear about that. And then actually in April and May, we're going to have our roundtable about permitting, because it is a concern in the industry, and so it's about regulatory permitting, compliance, challenges and lessons learned.
Speaker 2:So hopefully there will be conversations know conversations between owners, consultants and contractors to trying to make the process smoother and see what the industry can do to make it smoother do you guys record all these so you can watch them? No, it's about in person relationship building, trust.
Speaker 1:I know I'm just talking about for places who can't get there. Yeah, we should there. There's a lot of good content there, probably.
Speaker 2:There is. It's great, but it's really a safe space, so you don't need to worry about.
Speaker 1:You can just Kind of like this here A little different.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, lay it on the table and it stays in the room. So, yeah, there's some honest conversations and I think that really helps to build relationships between the three different parties in this industry, that you know when you can pick up the phone and talk to people about something that's going wrong in a construction site. That's what we want to help with the BC Construction Roundtable is to make people people knowing people, people trusting people pick up the phone, solve the problems right at the beginning or right when they start, before they fester and become what's going on on the North Shore right now. I don't know how that happened, but yeah, with the wastewater treatment.
Speaker 2:Like how that happened. That'll be, I'm sure, discussed for many years to come, but I think when you can have honest conversations a lot earlier on in the process, you're going to be able to prevent a lot of things from going wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. Well, this has been awesome. I really enjoyed it. I'm not sure if you did, I did. It was cool.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. Well, thank you very much for coming and it was a pleasure to meet you. Okay, all right. Well, thank you very much for coming and it was a pleasure to meet you. And you know, it's pretty rare to be able to sit and chat with someone you don't know very well and you know, discover each other, our styles and all that kind of stuff. I think it's a good challenge for both of us, but I really enjoyed this.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you very much for phoning me. It was so out of the blue and unexpected, but I appreciate the opportunity, so thank you. All right, thank you. Well, that does it for another episode of the site visit. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. You can also sign up for our monthly newsletter at sitemaxsystemscom slash the site visit, where you'll get industry insights, pro tips and everything you need to know about the SiteVisit podcast and Sitemax, the job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and beyond. Sitemax is also the engine that powers this podcast. All right, let's get back to building.