%2001%20Artboard%201.jpg)
The SiteVisit
Leadership in construction with perspective from the job site. A podcast dedicated to the Construction industry. Construction professionals, General Contractors, Sub trade Contractors, and Specialty Contractors audiences will be engaged by the discussions between the hosts and their guests on topics and stories. Hosted James Faulkner ( CEO/Founder - SiteMax Systems ).
The SiteVisit
Building Impressions: The Modern World of Construction Signage with Tristan Allan & Kim Hubbs from TDH Experiential Fabricators
Ever wondered about the hidden artistry behind those eye-catching signs on construction sites? Join Tristan Allan and Kim Hobbs from TDH Experiential Fabricators to uncover the intricacies of signage manufacturing. Their engineering and sales expertise shed light on the varied timelines and challenges faced in the industry, from quick installations to complex permitting processes that can take years. They share stories about collaborating with clients, emphasizing the precision and coordination required to bring a client's vision to life while adhering to regulatory standards. It’s a deep dive into the meticulous design and manufacturing processes that ensure high-quality signage.
Together we explore the cutting-edge world of LED and neon signage technology, discover how advancements in LED walls and digital screens are revolutionizing environments from retail to residential buildings, discuss the critical role of structural and electrical integration and highlight favourite projects and the strategies. Tune in now as we navigate the exciting and intricate world of signage in construction.
PODCAST INFO:
the Site Visit Website: https://www.sitemaxsystems.com/podcast
the Site Visit on Buzzsprout: https://thesitevisit.buzzsprout.com/269424
the Site Visit on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-site-visit/id1456494446
the Site Visit on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5cp4qJE5ExZmO3EwldN1HH
FOLLOW ALONG:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thesitevisit
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesitevisit
So I'm jealous of you guys Silence. So in the beginning days I was in the sign business. That's how I got my start in my parents' basement and you guys do the kind of work that I always looked up to. I was like God imagine being able to do these huge, massive signs.
Speaker 1:And one thing we did talk about, like Tristan, when we were on the phone together we were talking about how things scale and how they don't scale in terms of you get some artwork. It might look good on a piece of paper, but when it comes up to be six to ten feet on a wall on our surface, you're like, oh okay, this can be a little sketchy, it can be a little sketchy. So I used to have to. In the old days people didn't always have an electronic version of their logo and they used to give us something called a PMT, which is called a photomechanical transfer, and it was basically a high resolution. It was, I think, 1,200 dpi, black and white separations of the different colors that I had to to scan in and I had a scanner and I'd use this. I use a software called flexi sign at the time I don't, they probably don't have it and there was sign lab.
Speaker 2:I think it's still around is it flexi sign?
Speaker 1:sai flexi yeah, okay, there you go. And I had to scan it in and then I had to vectorize every point and clean up the lines, because every time the vinyl cutter blade would hit one of these nodes it would like if it wasn't straight, it would make a little wobble on it. So when I made someone sign like six feet, you know every I had to clean up everything, every curve anyway. So, anyway, so I do understand.
Speaker 2:Like surgery, it is kind of like surgery and then then they'd be like hey, can I have a?
Speaker 1:version of that logo. I'm like, oh, I've got to charge you for that. So, yeah, very, yeah, very. I have a lot of respect for the work you guys do, and when we met Kim, we met at the VRCA.
Speaker 3:Yeah, BuildX.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly VRCA booth, vrca booth and then you came up and we chatted a little bit and yeah, it was cool. I was like I want to talk about signage. So it's pretty cool Because you guys do a lot of construction-related work. Obviously New builds everything needs signage. I've looked on your website. Unbelievable stuff you guys have there. Thank you, I on your website. Unbelievable stuff you guys have there, thank you, I mean I look at the pictures. I'm like holy smokes, like that. Stuff is all beautiful work, so congratulations on that.
Speaker 2:So you guys like signs, we do.
Speaker 3:We love it, it's our life. You know, tristan will often say you know, we make cool blank. We make cool stuff, it's what we do. You make cool blank, we make cool stuff, that's what we do. You make cool blank, what is that? Well, I was going to say the you know I can't say that the profanity, yeah, but I wasn't going to say that. So we make cool, we make cool stuff. Oh, I see, how's that?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's good, that's good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the variety is great. The the assortment of projects we get immersed in is is really exciting for us and, as you noted, construction is a big part of our world because every time there's a new project there's going to need to be signage involved somewhere on the outside, on the inside, you name it. So we're blessed to be in this space, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:All right, we're going to talk about signs, business, how it all got started, all this kind of stuff. So here we go. Welcome to the Site, visit Podcast, leadership and perspective from construction With your host, james Faulkner. Business as usual, as it has been for so long, now that it goes back to what we were talking about before and hitting the reset button.
Speaker 3:You know you read all the books, you read the e-mails, you read Scaling Up, you read Good to Great. You know I could go on.
Speaker 2:We've got to a place where we found the secret serum. We found the secret potion. We can get the workers in. We know where to get them.
Speaker 3:One time I was on the job site for a while and actually we had a semester concrete and I ordered a Korean-Finnish patio.
Speaker 2:Oh fun, Did you say chill these days? I was down in Dallas and a guy just hit me up on LinkedIn out of the blue and said he was driving from Oklahoma to Dallas to meet with me because he heard the Faber Connect platform on your guys' podcast.
Speaker 1:Home crusher and love it, and we celebrate these values every single day. Let's get down to it. Kim Tristan, here we are at the site visit.
Speaker 2:Great to be here, thank you very much for inviting us.
Speaker 1:You're welcome, so let's just chat a little bit about you guys. So, tristan, you are the new owner from six years. Yes, okay, and you're an engineer in your past.
Speaker 2:I went to school for it, so I've got a bit of that background you went to school for it. Well, I would kind of say that is, and it's from the electrical side too Well that's helpful with signage.
Speaker 1:Sure If I could wire a light switch and then, and then, kim, have you always been in like, uh, you know, these kind of sales, business development kind of roles?
Speaker 3:always in a sales and business development role. The last four years more so in the signage space yeah, the previous 10 in more of the event marketing signage space, but three years more so print graphics, kind of like you shared oh yeah, you had an interest in. And then the dirty side of the business. Yeah, the dirty side of the business. It's exciting too, though. And then the last over the past year with Tristan, it's been great to join TDH.
Speaker 1:That's cool. Yeah, year with Tristan, it's been great to join TDH, that's cool. So let's just talk a little bit about when we talk about the vision from going to when people have an idea. So obviously you guys see this in the construction process. You look at the renderings and they go, okay, well, there's the sign and you're thinking, okay, so how often do you get the call really early?
Speaker 2:It varies. You have people out there who are super organized and then you have people who are end of the project. Oh shit, we need this done. And I think I see that fair bit with kind of restaurant ownership. In some cases, when they're opening up, it's like, okay, end of the process. Oh, we need a sign and they'll run into it. Where it's, you know, they're six, eight weeks out. We need a sign. And then it's like, well, there's a timeline to do this. It's the design, the permitting, the engineering, the manufacturing. Installation is the quick part at the end. That all has to factor into it. So we do run into that. I have other projects where it's a two-year timeline because we're going after relaxations to bylaws or code massive permitting process. If it's a large development, there's dozens of signs that have to get planned for. That's all part of it.
Speaker 1:Right In terms of the permitting side are sign permits difficult?
Speaker 2:Depends on the municipality and the jurisdiction. There's some that are much easier to deal with than others. Some are quick, efficient Two weeks you have a permit. There's others where you don't know how long it's going to take. You don't know the requirements that's going to take. You don't know the requirements that could be given to you and that can in some cases take a year, two years. I've had them go as far as two years.
Speaker 1:Well for permitting. Yes. Wow, Just because of so do they push back on design or the size scale protrusion kind of stuff?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be things that don't comply.
Speaker 1:Like that need a variance too. That need a variance.
Speaker 2:I see, Okay cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, wow, we see in a variety. You know, to Tristan's point, there are construction companies that will come to us with their project and their drawings and they'll also have the detail as it relates to signage, including a signage plan, signage designs. It's completely thorough, it's most helpful to us. We'll still collaborate and consult. And then there are other situations where we'll get a set of drawings and the client will say you know we need signage, you figure it out, so I'll even get clients sometimes where it's like I'm opening a vet clinic.
Speaker 2:They barely have a name. They have no brand whatsoever. Oh jeez they have to pick it up from that sometimes.
Speaker 1:Wow, but I would also think from the manufacturing side that you guys need to do your drawings right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, so they get you to do that, obviously because you guys know what you're doing, obviously from a manufacturing process.
Speaker 2:Every project we touch we do a full set of shop drawings.
Speaker 1:Oh got it.
Speaker 2:We need a set of blueprints. In our business we've got about 20 people Average project. You probably have 15 to the full 20 touching it in some way. Wow crazy They've all got to be on the same page. So those drawings we do in full 3D Fusion 360, every part, how it goes together, how it's attached, because it needs to be a full blueprint for every person in that chain of tasks how they need to perform their job, what the finished product looks like.
Speaker 1:Is that PC machines used for that, or Macs?
Speaker 2:We're set up, so we're agnostic on that. You are okay so?
Speaker 1:it kind of doesn't matter, we accept all computers.
Speaker 2:It's all allowed at this point, I think.
Speaker 1:Equity and inclusion for all of the OSs. That's pretty cool. So I mean, how often we were talking about this one of your customers, the apparel brand Arcteryx, and that being able to make something because they're very high quality you know $1,000 jackets that means it has to breathe quality from two blocks away. You got to look at that thing and go, yep, that makes sense to me Absolutely. You got to look at that thing and go, yep, that makes sense to me Absolutely. And so you were saying that you know their thirst for perfection. It aligned with how specific you guys are and you went through some challenges with that project, from making it look really big like the bird skeleton. Is it a bird or is it a dinosaur skeleton, or a dinosaur bird skeleton? What is it?
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's the right terminology. In the shop we call it the dead bird.
Speaker 2:The dead bird okay, it's a reference to, yeah, some dinosaur from. I'd have to go back to their website to find the exact context for that. But yeah, there is a lot into it. So you know it's a complex shape and the traditional way of approaching creating an illuminated shape out of that is you're wrapping it, as we'd call it. You're taking aluminum and bending it to the face contour Not an easy thing to do when it's all these tiny little bends.
Speaker 1:Right, because you have to snip those each time to bend it, because it's an extrusion, is it not?
Speaker 2:There are ways with extrusion to do it, or you can hand do it.
Speaker 2:In a lot of cases there's machinery out there for some of that. Lots of trade-offs to how you approach it. I think for the complexity and the small pieces of the Arcteryx logo at the scale that we're normally building it we're normally building these birds at, let's say, about three feet tall the pieces themselves that we have to illuminate get down to about half an inch and even smaller in some cases, and that has to take into account the material thickness of the wall, making sure that we don't have any light leaking out where we don't need it. So you have to have some material thickness for that. And then the LEDs as well. So we've had to procure specialty LEDs that will fit in channels down to one-eighth of an inch and make sure that the whole thing illuminates beautifully, that you don't have hot spots. Everything is consistent, because if you walk through a mall and if you become a sign guy, you're going to walk through a mall and can't stop looking at every sign that you pass.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you become the critique.
Speaker 2:For sure, that's right, and you start to notice that the ones where, if it's illuminated from the face of the ladder or whatever and it's not quite consistent, it starts driving you up the wall, or if it's illuminating from the back, there's little dots because you can see where every LED is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all the nodes, you can see that.
Speaker 2:If they're poorly placed or inconsistently placed, as they often are we can't tolerate that in the work, especially for a client like that. So yeah, there's a fair bit of kind of R&D in terms of figuring out how to get material to work so that it consistently produces a perfectly formed bird, illuminates beautifully and has a kind of clean finish to the whole thing. There's a lot of signage, manufacturing methods. People in the industry call it I've heard it a six-foot rule. That's a 10-foot rule. Does it look good enough from six or 10 feet?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's cases where I believe that's applicable. If it's 20 stories above the ground, hanging off a building, we do those, you know. Are you really concerned about the look of the retainer? You can't see it from 20 stories down, right. But if it's, you know, in the case of Arcteryx the bird in the window people are walking right up to it. You know that's got to be clean. Yeah, right up to it. You know that's got to be clean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would imagine from the color side that with LED the Kelvin has got to be a huge factor on how you can get that right tone of the white.
Speaker 2:Yes. So in the case of Arc'teryx, we've done a bunch of testing to get the right modules. The challenge there is there's a bunch of LED manufacturers out there and they might call them 7,000 Kelvin.
Speaker 1:You know, 7,000 Kelvin from one manufacturer might match. That's like really, really blue.
Speaker 2:We'd call that typically a daylight or a pure white, and that's what we use for most of our product.
Speaker 1:So what's candle light Like 2,000?.
Speaker 2:Yeah, usually around three candles might be 2000, your average interior lighting would be three or four thousand yeah, I've seen some of my neighbors with that.
Speaker 1:I'm like, how do you do it? I gotta be in like 1800 almost orange you're gonna set the right mood. Well, you do. It's amazing what that can do. Otherwise, it kind of feels like you're in. We're all conditioned to feel like you're in class when you're a kid.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's part of the consultative process, though, is you know, others might just be like. You know here's a sign and we're going to illuminate it. Yeah, you know we're looking at. You know, dialing in that color temperature, yeah, and you know, if it's face illuminated, you might want something different than it's halo illuminated. If you're doing it inside an office, you probably want something different, a little bit warmer, for example. Example.
Speaker 1:So can your software model, the Kelvin, and then the signed, like the guys who use Lexan or something like that, or probably acrylic, acrylic in most of those Right so the acrylic, and then you have some kind of a transparent vinyl on there creating the color. Yes, yes. Okay, but you don't print that, you lay it down you can print it in some cases, but it fades too much, though, doesn't it.
Speaker 2:The print won't last as long if it's out in UV sun, right, and it's not as rich a color.
Speaker 1:Right, so it's really little dots.
Speaker 3:Yes, otherwise the other stuff's salt. Yeah, we've got pre-dyed cut vinyl in a variety of different colors. Pre-dyed, is that what?
Speaker 1:you guys use.
Speaker 2:It's manufactured with a specific color.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, yeah, exactly that's what I mean yeah, okay, we're talking the same things. Basically translucent vinyl yeah absolutely Okay, cool and you guys have. Like you, get big. I remember the 48-inch rolls.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're still 48 inches yeah.
Speaker 3:They are okay, we still use Imperial.
Speaker 1:I used to go.
Speaker 3:I don't know yeah.
Speaker 1:They always used to chase me for their bill.
Speaker 3:I was going to add that to Tristan's point that you know, the clients that we tend to have the best results with I got to look at your website Are the ones that have that real desire to get into the weeds with us. You know, as we've shared, there's a lot of detail that goes into fabricating signage, more so than most people can possibly imagine. So clients like Arcteryx, and certainly construction companies that we partner with to help meet their customers' needs, if they're willing to really engage in the process and the project, then we're going to have great success. Because there's so many nuances to what are we producing, how's it being installed, what materials we should use, and you know some clients just want a price. They're probably not the right fit for us.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting because when you like your name, T-D-H, what's?
Speaker 2:the X Experiential.
Speaker 1:Experiential fabricators. You know that experiential signage is, like always, kind of the high end stuff. So that's because it's that. I remember that back in the day I was like the experiential. We definitely don't do that. But looking at your website here I mean the Fortune Sound Club Wow, that looks like that was a fun one. It looks fun. So just yeah, just people don't know it. They should check that one out, because it's basically a big dragon around a kind of a diamond shape and with the typeface in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're in Chinatown in.
Speaker 1:Vancouver. There's.
Speaker 2:Fortune Sound Club and there's also Psywoo across the street. Psywoo was recreated from a, I think a two-second video clip from the 1950s and brought that sign back to life.
Speaker 1:So cool.
Speaker 2:And then Fortune Sound Club a few years later, right across the street. You know cool dragon out of neon projecting off the building. Can't miss it so slick.
Speaker 1:So do you go to Vegas and you're like, holy crap, look at this. Do you like Vegas with all their sun? I mean, is Vegas kind of like the? So is it Tokyo or Vegas? That is the sort of where's all the new stuff being done?
Speaker 3:Hong Kong, I mean, I've been to Vegas many times. I've only been I was just there. I've only been to Tokyo once.
Speaker 1:But I look at some of the things that they're doing now. Yeah, I mean, I think what's really taken off, and do you guys incorporate LED walls much? Do you get into that or not?
Speaker 2:We do. If you go down Westminster Highway past the Richmond Automall, there's a 25-foot-tall giant screen.
Speaker 1:You guys made that.
Speaker 2:We made that Jeez how long. So yeah, we've usually got. The answer is yes. When you're buying your next vehicle, plug for Richmond.
Speaker 1:Automall. That's the Automall. Oh nice, so that stuff's really coming along though. Right yeah, it's getting thinner, lighter, easier to manage every year.
Speaker 2:The resolution of the chips is getting smaller and smaller. It's down to well under a millimeter a pixel for interior. I think the exterior is about 2.2 and slightly below millimeters.
Speaker 1:So you've seen that in retail quite a bit. If you go through Pacific Center I see a lot of that stuff now incorporated with the signage.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we're seeing it too. It's becoming more commonplace, even within condominiums, residential buildings, where they'll have digital screens inside the foyer. The lobby information oh that kind of stuff yeah, that kind of boring stuff. Wow, we're getting asked for the lobby information. Oh that kind of stuff yeah, that kind of boring stuff. Well, we're getting asked for it. Well, the cool thing, we're supplying it.
Speaker 1:So I think is what the business you guys are in is adding the, it's adding the conversation to the visuals. Always, you know, like in a building, until the signage is in there, it's kind of like a shell. It's kind of like a shell, it's kind of like you're the furniture, because you add that last thing, because often there's the identity of the building itself, like especially on a condo project. There's the name and everyone for three years has said, yeah, I put a deposit on the blank, whatever that place is.
Speaker 1:They've built their dream and when they walk up to it you guys have got that stamp and whether or not that thing is going to deliver on the hey honey, so glad we bought this place. Or hey, honey, what the hell is this? It's vinyl letters on the glass. That's right, you know what I mean. So you can deliver on the dream for the developer on the quality of that signage installation.
Speaker 3:We want to create the best experience possible, whether, it's that it's the X and the Well truly that visitor, that residential experience, that visitor experience even in, even in someone's workplace, their office.
Speaker 3:And we know that when you have the right quality of signage and graphics in that space it makes that environment more enjoyable to live in, to work in, to shop in. And certainly, from a branding standpoint, it helps our clients really attract their customers to showcase their business, whether it's a restaurant we deal with or a retail apparel brand. The list kind of goes on and on. So yeah, we do come toward the end of the project, but it's vital for a couple of reasons. One, as you know, they have to meet occupancy requirements and safety standards and, more importantly, we want that look in that environment to be first class. So touch all the bases that way.
Speaker 1:When it comes to you, versus like some of the other sign companies that have been around, like Jim Patterson, they still make signs, or not?
Speaker 2:They do yes, and Galaxy and all those guys yes.
Speaker 1:But you guys kind of do more higher-end stuff than they do now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, they might be different businesses.
Speaker 1:They do a lot of sign boxes and stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, Patterson's national programs, so they'll do McDonald's across the country. I know some of the people there. I don't know if they're always interested in kind of the small one-offs and the crazy stuff. You know we talk to them about some of that stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do they sub you guys out ever?
Speaker 2:We've subbed a little bit for Patterson Nice.
Speaker 1:Cool, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Not recently, but most of their stuff is, you know, the high high volume national programs which we do for our own clients. It's not quite the model that I think fits what they're doing for their business, which is a little bit of a different focus.
Speaker 1:Cool, yeah, I mean I say the Lululemon sign that you guys did on 4th for their original store.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an old Midas sign. Is that what that?
Speaker 1:is yeah. Oh my God, that's so cool.
Speaker 2:There used to be a Midas there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do remember that, Holy smokes. Yeah, that wasn't their original store, though, was it? It's just their flagship one, isn't it?
Speaker 2:No, I think it is.
Speaker 1:And then Muji.
Speaker 2:Yep, I go there all the time. They're out of my slippers by the way.
Speaker 3:Well, there you go, yeah.
Speaker 1:I want to get the slippers they have there again, but I only have them in the winter and then. So we've seen this sort of proliferation of this LED rope lighting stuff that emulates neon. That's like, obviously, to you guys, is the hot dogs of the industry right, well, there's good, better, best.
Speaker 2:You guys are like the filet mignon, it's like the hot dogs, very pedestrian.
Speaker 1:Everyone orders them like 600 bucks from wherever and they show up.
Speaker 2:It's a factory in China. Yeah, for the most part.
Speaker 1:But has that taken a little bite out of this sort of middle-of-the-row business that you might not have been interested in, but a lot of the other smaller sign shops, do you think Like the order online kind of thing?
Speaker 3:Well, there's definitely going to be a market for that product. I'm not going to sit here and criticize it. Well you should. It does kind of suck Well it has its place.
Speaker 2:It has its place. It's a price point, right, right. It doesn't look as good as the real neon.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it doesn't even look close.
Speaker 2:It doesn't illuminate from all sides and there's trade-offs to this. So usually if we're sitting down with a client to Kim's point, there's usually a good, better, best approach to a lot of these things.
Speaker 1:Do you guys ever use that stuff?
Speaker 2:Rarely For a lot of our clients and kind of recently we did a project for the Canucks for example, where they were looking at glass tube neon. There's safety risks to it. I'm putting, as I said, 9 to 15 kilovolts through a piece of glass that has mercury in it. It has to be protected by code, so I have to put a cover in front of it, or high enough that people can't touch it, or whatever it might be Because it just snaps pretty quick right. It takes 13 pounds of pressure to break the glass.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the tube's only what like three quarters of an inch, half an inch, typically 10, 12 mil A half an inch typically 10, 12 mil so yeah, just over a half an inch.
Speaker 3:Half an inch, yeah.
Speaker 1:Not to mention the safety risk. So what are the different gases?
Speaker 2:for the neon, for the colors, it's either neon or argon.
Speaker 1:Argon. Okay, so how do you get different colors?
Speaker 2:So it's a mix of the coating inside the tube.
Speaker 1:Oh, this is the tube's color and the gas. Yes, there the gas. Yes, there's a coating inside Interesting.
Speaker 2:But back to the LED. You know there's different flavors. So you've got the we call it the Chinese rope light. Yeah, good for you know it's inexpensive. You know I'd say it's often, you know, in some cases good enough for what some people are doing. You can kind of see the wiring running through it. It doesn't look great from the backside. If it's something where it's a double-sided application, you can see there's a plastic piece to it. That might be sufficient for some people. If you want to stick with LED because you don't want to go full neon, then there's other products that we get, which is, you know, illuminates from both sides. We can set it up as more of a traditional neon on the old glass standoffs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of make it look.
Speaker 2:It looks a lot more realistic.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But doesn't carry any of the safety.
Speaker 1:Are those standoffs glass? I thought they were plexiglass, those little things you put the wire around.
Speaker 2:Old school it's glass, oh is it. If you go back 20-something years, it all used to be glass Nowadays-.
Speaker 1:So it was a piece of the tube and they put a saddle in it and then put a loop Probably right.
Speaker 2:Probably could have done that. There's manufacturers that make them out of glass. Oh, I see it's. We had a project what was it? Two years ago or so in North Vancouver, just off Lonsdale. It's an art project called when Else Would you Rather Be Okay? When we were installing it, the joke from the site people was anywhere but here.
Speaker 1:Exactly Not here.
Speaker 2:But that one, you know that case they're like we would really love the real neon. It's outdoors, there's a risk of vandalism, it's right in front of the entrance to the condominium building.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, they love the look, but you got to have the practicality of LED neon, so to speak.
Speaker 2:That's kind of the higher end LED neon. It illuminates from both sides but it's not going to be smashed or whatever it might be.
Speaker 1:So on the sales front. So do you come in there and you're like, yeah, we can do it. And then he gets here and then gives them the reality check.
Speaker 3:Well, the reality is that nothing can happen without Tristan and I say that no, but is it like that often, though?
Speaker 1:No, I think you know, Because he's just pragmatic. I mean he's just going to tell you what it is and the best practices.
Speaker 3:You know, we sort of tag team with clients, right In a good way. Yeah, tristan's blessed, as you're hearing. He's got a lot of the technical experience and the the knowledge that I'm that I'm quickly learning and gaining, yeah, but the key is again I kind of said it earlier um, to be consultative, really to find out what's important for the client, because there are options and a lot of our clients, um, you know, don't know signage the way we know it, just like our construction company partners know how to put up buildings, but they aren't signage experts. So everyone has their own area of expertise. We want to come in and ask the right questions and gain insight from the clients so that we can then come back and make recommendations.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'll give you a very quick example. We're working with, uh with a client right now a construction company that's looking to build some signage for a healthcare provider, and the healthcare provider wants the dimensions of the lettering for their signage to be a certain way. We're coming back to our client, the construction company, and saying, well, we can do it this way if your customer really wants it. However, we feel that for visual effect and visibility, it's better to do it this way, I won't bore you with all the details and I do believe that the clients that we work with that value that input from us and those recommendations based on our experience. Those are the ones we have the best outcomes with.
Speaker 1:Do you take them through like a digital walkthrough so they can kind of get what you're saying?
Speaker 2:It's a lot of sample photos of here's previous projects. We've got a huge library of that Grabbing samples from the back, that type of stuff and a lot of discussion. Ok, this is education on how projects go together and how we can best support it. To your point about if a client wants something crazy, usually if there's a will, there's a way, comes down to cost. Do you want to pay the cost that it is going to have to take to do it? And there's a will, there's a way. It comes down to cost. Do you want to pay the cost that it's going to have to take to do it? And there's little things in there. The smallest of details can blow up that cost. So it's kind of guiding people through all those little things on what's going to get them to the result that they want, the level of quality that they want within, you know, a budget that they can afford.
Speaker 3:Including. I'll add a site visit.
Speaker 1:Oh, a site visit the site visit.
Speaker 3:You see Jeez Play on words huh Whoa Tell ya Some bad humor here. Gotta do some standup. But the site visit has helped us, and I mean sincerely. It's helped us win projects. We've had customers that have said you guys were the only ones that came to site. You visited the project site, you took measurements photos.
Speaker 1:You met us there. Well, I mean, that's what we're about. It should have been done. Do you have any kind of like a off-the-cuff metric of the worst scenario you've seen in terms of your installation estimate being 3, 4x what you thought it was because of the envelope or something that's going on structurally that wasn't anticipated, that the client didn't communicate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there'd be lots of examples of that. We're super anal about that today.
Speaker 1:Like getting in as soon as you can, knowing everything.
Speaker 2:Well, we're not going to necessarily be able to see every job site. We work on, let's say, probably at least half our job sites. The building's not built yet. It's working off that architectural set and conversation with the client the two things that I generally need. I need structural backing something that will hold what I'm putting up and the engineer is going to sign off on it and power. It's working through those two types of things and a lot of that can be handled. If the building's not built yet, it's like okay, so you're putting up this type of cladding system. This is how I can roughen your wiring and you get some fun ones.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of cases where we're having to like we need wires in precisely the right spot. If you're trying to hit some letter, that's yeah, half inch thick. If we're we're talking about archeterics, birds or, you know, led neon, that's. It's got to be like. That connects led neon job. You know it's. It was going into glass, it had to be. You know half a millimeter precision on where this stuff's coming out yeah otherwise it's going to look wonky.
Speaker 1:So is it your electricians doing that or theirs are doing that?
Speaker 2:We do our own wiring and roughing and all that kind of stuff you do Okay.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, but they just provide you the service of the power to that point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll take 120 volt service to junction box.
Speaker 1:Is it ever more than that?
Speaker 2:No, that's what we're listed for Okay so you never need more than that. We'll do multiple circuits, but we're never dealing with 240 or anything like that, I'll just add.
Speaker 3:Conversely, there's projects that come our way where we will politely decline. We had an experience a few months ago with a potential client that wanted building signage on the wall the exterior wall of their building, and we had much dialogue with them. But the next step in putting together the proposal would have been reconnecting with the GC and getting more specifications to do it right, because we had concerns about can these walls actually hold the signage? That's going to be hundreds and hundreds of pounds, right, and they simply just wanted a price. Give us your price based on what we've shared with you already. So we had to politely walk away from that one. It was too risky. You know, to Tristan's point about that detail, if the signage fails, there's going to be damage to building property and probably life.
Speaker 1:So we said, eh, probably not the right fit for us. So early on in the process it just seems like they will do landscaping plans, they'll do you know, exterior lighting plans. All this stuff's done. Oh yeah, the signage. I mean, is it often that much of an afterthought?
Speaker 2:Some people will think of it a lot won't. And yeah, it's an afterthought at the end.
Speaker 1:And it's a pain because you've got to deal with those other two things the power and then the structure to be able to get that done right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of how do we and if the wall's not fully closed in, okay, we can deal with this. Here's the rough end that I need you to do to make this work properly. But, yeah, we run into plenty of scenarios finished building working on, yeah, arcteryx project in Halifax right now for putting up their signage on a finished building.
Speaker 1:So are you shipping that from here?
Speaker 2:Yes, shit, the bird is not flying.
Speaker 3:I don't think it ever did. It's a dead bird.
Speaker 2:And my morning this morning was a lot of how are we taking your building apart to rough it in so that it can go back together? And when it all goes back together then it looks pristine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. That's crazy, Because I would imagine that the people doing the cladding they're feeling all great, they walk away and they're okay, our stuff's done. And then you guys are coming in here. Oh, by the way, that's an extra invoice.
Speaker 2:They charge more, I guess.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, we've had many companies that are super organized and they're the best to work with. Yeah for sure. They give you the drawings, they give you the signage package, they give you all the detail. What's it made from? You know, I mean we'll, we'll have recommendations after the fact, but they, they come prepared and that helps immensely. But, as we talked about earlier, some people just say, hey, here's the drawings. We need your help. They're figured out.
Speaker 2:And the value. Like we also do work for a bunch of clients where we're preparing for a full site, the conceptual design, the full sign plan. Yes, some come prepared with that, whether they're architect kind of put together, others don't and they look to us to build it out. It's always kind of an interesting thing, a little bit working on someone else's drawing set versus our own. You know our view on it is you, it is. There is value to having us in there and us kind of taking that on because you're designing for manufacturing. So an architect might design something that looks beautiful but it might have dimensions or things that don't quite work for one reason or another. I've looked at them recently where they're trying to put a big freestanding sign but they've only given us an inch and a half at the base to support this massive structure kind of thing, or just pieces of form. There was one a couple of years back which was a bit of a fun project if you ever drive by the Emily Carr campus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that one with the is the coffee thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's the flower.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's that thing called? What's the coffee place called again?
Speaker 3:I can't remember anymore, gosh, you stumped us.
Speaker 1:I know it looks like an onion.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like a red onion, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tomato. Yeah, some kind of vegetable, and then right outside it is a court and steel sign, okay, and we did the court and steel piece and it twists as it goes up. There's no right angles on the thing. It's got twists in a bunch of different ways.
Speaker 1:I have a picture in here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's on the website. That was a challenging one for a picture in here. Yeah, it's on the website. That was a challenging one for a couple of reasons. We've got to have enough in there that we can put some structure up through the middle.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I see it.
Speaker 2:The form that the person who designed it wanted completely folded at some point, so we had to work with them so that we could put appropriate structure through it, and then they want to illuminate. So there's a bunch of considerations to that in terms of making sure that we have proper spacing in there for the LEDs, looking at how the retainers will hold, because we have to hold the acrylic in place and not have it fall out. There's a lot of consideration of the interaction materials, the expansion and contraction consideration of the interaction materials. The expansion and contraction coefficient of the plastic is much different than the metal, so you have to make sure things work that won't pop out.
Speaker 1:It looks like a bitch, this one.
Speaker 2:It was.
Speaker 1:I mean, is it cantilevered out like this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it goes out, and then this and then another.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:And it had to be perfectly straight at the top at the time you're done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's lovely, yeah, that would have been fun Leaning signs.
Speaker 2:those are the. I've got a few of those. I've got two more ongoing.
Speaker 1:Those are so in your years of doing this, seen a change from, I mean, advertising companies, design companies. They've all kind of I mean, there's still some of the good ones, but they've kind of like scattered right A lot of freelancers like it's not like the old. The agencies used to come and do all of this work and they were very experienced, very organized. Now you've got a lot of, do you see, like vector files coming to you guys that are kind of like what the hell is this?
Speaker 2:We get the gamut. There is some design agency work in terms of the actual graphic design of a logo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, file preparations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you'll get the gamut of that. I think we're talking about this at the start. When you start, or when someone often designs a logo, they're designing it for print or website.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, the small details of this thing aren't necessarily visible to the average human eye. We're taking something that's been designed for web, you know, and maybe have some glyphs in there or pieces that aren't quite right that you won't notice at that scale, and we're blowing it up to three feet tall and doing it in a way that's expensive to do and expensive to redo if it's not perfect the first time. So you'll notice flat spots or curves that are not perfect, or you know.
Speaker 1:Like serifs that are kind of yeah, and they're using fonts from like Defont or something.
Speaker 3:Well, we just went through that exercise this afternoon for a project with serifs and stroke widths and all those details, when you're trying to take a logo a flat logo, yeah and you're trying to make an illuminated dimensional sign.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting. There's in a number of bold sans serif typefaces and for everyone who doesn't know what that means, no wings on it. Like Times New Roman is a serif typeface. Sans serif would be like Helvetica. If you look at an N, for instance, there's like a sweep when it comes together, and that was there for offset printing because the ink used to come together and it would come together and make that point, that angle, perfect. But it went up in the corner, further into the letter so that that ink could absorb and go in. That's why it's done like that into the letter, so that that ink could absorb and go in. That's why it's done like that. I used to do this work. I used to go in and take that out, because on vinyl it would swoop up like that and the cutter would go up. If you did a letter that was three feet tall, suddenly you're like what the hell is that thing there? You have to go in and take it out.
Speaker 2:We still have people that do that. That's first step in the process, after a client signs off the drawings and we get the permit Cleaning the font. I love it. The devil is in the detail, do you?
Speaker 1:have a font cleaning department.
Speaker 2:Currently it's whoever did the work in the first place, but we used to have a guy and you know and that if you start out on the design team, your first job is font cleaning.
Speaker 1:Okay, it's fine. We have a sanding department. So that's like sweeping the job site, the first thing in your place is Font cleaning.
Speaker 2:If you're on the design team, you're going to get your hands dirty.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it Just for art, like GC and sub-trade guys. Sub-trade's mostly on electrical side, on the envelope side, cladding side, and then GC's like what's the best practices for them? Obviously the words earlier than later is the best, but what considerations can they think of and can they? You know, often these are design build companies. They're involved really early with the developer and the architects and engineers and they inform quite a lot of the project. So what are some of the best practices? If you could just grab them all on a rim and say, guys, can you just do this? What would those pieces of advice be?
Speaker 3:Well, number one, see us early in the process. Okay, I already said that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm repeating it because it is mission critical.
Speaker 3:Okay, what else? I'm overstating the obvious.
Speaker 1:Okay, so bold on that underlined font cleaned. Underlined.
Speaker 2:Font cleaned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm going to say it's plan for it to be a collaborative process. You've got to be engaged. We had a client at our shop yesterday for the better part of a day, as we're working through some castings of ice cream cones and we're working on Castings of ice cream cones.
Speaker 1:Wow, we're getting into some interesting stuff. Yeah, no kidding, do you have a casting?
Speaker 2:department. No, we bring in the cast, but Crazy, but you pour these things. There's people out there that pour them yes.
Speaker 1:Wow crazy.
Speaker 2:Okay, we bring in pours of cast for certain projects, for sure, but you know it's and this would be on kind of the the very high end, uh, or sorry, hands-on end of things, uh, trying to get that the paint finish. Cause we're trying to get a semi translucent paint finish, which is a whole other ball game in itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Uh to go on. These and Colors are a total pain in the ass, right. Oh yeah, um my my Like brand colors, yeah, like personality, oh yeah, like brand colors, yeah, personality of the building Finish yeah, gloss, not gloss, matte, all that kind of stuff yeah, changes the color.
Speaker 2:It's all part of the detail we have to get into right. Yeah, and people like color systems. A lot of people think, or kind of used to, because they've maybe dealt with a website here or two they'll think RGB hex codes. Yeah, those are the bane of our existence a little bit, because they don't translate to the physical paint world.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Give us your Pantone color, and then we'll have to figure it out from there.
Speaker 1:Because Pantone is almost like these days. People are not using even in print. It's like CMYK everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and CMY doesn't necessarily translate to our world very well on the physical side, so it's still Pantone would be the most universal color reference. Some of the paint manufacturer books, like a Benjamin Moore. Sherman works pretty well, or we have. You know, our paint systems have proprietary books, but a lot of that. You still have to see the physical reference.
Speaker 1:So do you guys have a paint system like a Home Depot has, with that little carousel and drips? Come in and gives you how many.
Speaker 2:I run two systems.
Speaker 1:Is it all based on ounces?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's all based on weight. I can custom match about 90,000 different colors in-house. I can get into metallics. We even get into spraying brass powder and stuff like that onto surfaces.
Speaker 1:I'm going to come by here because I want to see this. Yeah, I'd probably geek out pretty hard. You'd have to kick me out at like 5.30.
Speaker 2:Be there at 9.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds pretty awesome.
Speaker 3:You had a question about what's key for our construction and GC, so color. I think number one I said you know obviously get involved early. Tristan's point was a good one. It's got to be collaborative. You know we're talking and sharing things today. There's just so much detail.
Speaker 2:Like we have to understand your building too.
Speaker 3:You've got to be there early and we have to have engagement with the stakeholders right away. And when we do that, when there's that willingness to have meetings, we get it right.
Speaker 2:It's like we have to understand your building. It's like we're coming into the project. You send us an architectural set we're pretty good at reading those because we do that all day but do we fully understand every piece of how you, how you, want it to operate? There's, there's often a bunch of operational knowledge. Uh, that comes into it as to, um, you know, I want people to interact with the building in this way. You know I want them to be able to find their way from x to y. Um, you know, the key features of what we're doing here is Z, whatever it might be. Those are key details that we kind of need to understand to help to best support you.
Speaker 2:There's a project a couple of weeks ago where they're building a parkade and we're sitting down and someone's gone and designed what they want for signage and, uh, you know, we, we, we were kicking off the project and, and, as part of this, I'm like, okay, we need to meet with you and just kind of run through a bunch of this and make sure that we've got all the right pieces and this makes sense, for, for everyone, um, and some of it's the basic stuff I need to make sure I've got the right structure in place, the right power, and we just start getting into it and the conversation starts going. It's like, oh, how are people actually approaching this building? Are they going to find the right entries for those different entries for different types of users, or whatever it might be?
Speaker 2:By the time we were done an hour later, the whole plan had been redesigned Because the right people were in the room from the client. We were there too, and we had a really good discussion about how to make their building operational.
Speaker 1:So that's like the UX part.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's a huge part of that.
Speaker 1:Because I don't necessarily think people are actually thinking of that. I mean, on a web application or a website, you're thinking of the UI and the UX, how it operates. Building's no different. You guys are the visual traffic controllers for people on their day-to-day of where they're supposed to go, what they're supposed to do, what they're supposed to experience, how they're supposed to feel.
Speaker 2:I had a restaurant recently where they came to us. It's like the signage isn't effective. We had a restaurant recently where they came to us. It's like the signage isn't effective. We had a brainstorming session for 45 minutes on how to. Basically, we're not getting people through the door.
Speaker 2:Did you guys build it already, and that's what they're saying it was a project which we had a bunch of involvement in and had built out the signage. There's things in there that wasn't quite driving the guest numbers that they were looking for Did they not listen to you guys originally?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. It's collaborative.
Speaker 2:Stuff's not always perfect.
Speaker 1:We didn't drop a name. This was one where it's like, okay, this didn't, stuff's not always perfect.
Speaker 2:We didn't drop a name, so this one, it was one where it's like, okay, this isn't working.
Speaker 2:So we had a and yes, we were involved in kind of building out the original sign plan. This isn't working. We're not driving the people through the door that we need. So it was a brainstorming session of how do we change all this and we found solutions, not super expensive. You know they implemented a different signage pattern based on what they were seeing from people kind of transiting through all that type of stuff. And you know it's, I've been told that, you know from that. You know they see a jump in patrons in their restaurant and Plus the menu changes.
Speaker 1:It's all better. There you go.
Speaker 3:I think of the work we did with Flyover this year.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Down at Canada Place. You know the event attraction Cinnabon.
Speaker 1:That's a good example, yeah.
Speaker 3:We had our-. Did you?
Speaker 1:guys make that crazy, like- they just have gone through-.
Speaker 2:What is that.
Speaker 3:They've gone through a rebranding process. So, they asked us to come in.
Speaker 1:You know that thing that's at the gate on the front, what is that?
Speaker 3:thing the kiosk. No at the front.
Speaker 1:You know when you walk right at Canada Place, because the flyover is down the left side, down at the end of the walkway. It's on the west side of Canada Place, yes, but right at the entrance there's this kind of gateway thing. Maybe it's a First Nations thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Is that part of flyover? That's a different part of.
Speaker 1:That's exactly an example of UX, right? You're like is that part of my experience? Yeah, because I look at that thing and I'm like, what is that? Yeah, I don't even know what it is. Yeah, no, that was different from the work we did I run by it whenever I go for a run because I live down there.
Speaker 3:But we had hours and hours of consultation and meetings.
Speaker 1:Was it insultation? So you're an insultant, that's my favorite.
Speaker 3:No, and it was absolutely amazing Okay. It really was necessary and including the Port of Vancouver, because they kind of run the place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of stakeholders to that one. That one was interesting because they're a new brand. They're trying to not become so much of a tourist attraction for foreign visitors and attract much more of cool experience. It's too seasonal, otherwise yeah, Cool experience and it can be. It's a cool thing if you go check it out, but a cool experience for whatever event that they have going on throughout the year for the locals to experience too. So they've rebranded into something that's a little bit less kitschy, I guess, or?
Speaker 2:kitschy into something that's kind of much more refined, represents their new direction much better.
Speaker 1:Is it still called?
Speaker 2:Flyover Still called Flyover. I don't think it's dropped the Canada Place part of it, because they've got multiple locations across North America now.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's the Flyover part.
Speaker 2:It's just Flyover. It's just Flyover. If you look at their new brand, they've got as part of it. They wanted a dynamic O. So you know illuminated letters, but the O had to change and shift. I see you see it in their videos. It's a shifting O, so we had to come up with a whole solution that we loaded and basically a DIY screen, basically into the back of the channel letter and it's programmed to illuminate and change and shift the coloration and the gradation.
Speaker 1:That's cool. It's really really cool. Nice, that's awesome. I went to the Sphere when I was in Vegas a couple of weeks ago. I think it's nuts.
Speaker 3:I've seen videos of it. Did you see a concert there?
Speaker 1:I saw their. They have this. It's like it's kind of dark. I've got to be honest. So it's this thing about the earth. Here's the synopsis is. Here's all these beautiful things about the earth. Then we decided to all focus on ourselves, be into social media, get rid of religion, and now we've wrecked the planet, and now we have to leave the planet and go and populate mars oh saturn, excuse me.
Speaker 1:Oh, and that that's how it ends, and then at some point we get to go back. After the the earth has replenished itself. Anyway, the whole point I I thought was very cool about the sphere was they have a three, they have a uh, an image of a person spinning like in the middle of the air. It's weird. It's a screen. You can't see the substrate of the screen, so it looks like this 3D person and it's three stories high, floating in the middle of the concourse. It's crazy. But the other thing I thought was nuts was. So Vegas was 39 degrees, not a cloud in the sky, and this thing's fully bright in the middle of the day on the outside.
Speaker 1:Yes, like you fly in, you're like what the hell is that? Yeah, like that's the sphere. It's like holy crap. So I wonder how many lumens each one of those little nodes? It must be crazy.
Speaker 3:There's some energy use for you. Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I'm sure that they're.
Speaker 1:They're um using more power than the strip just for that thing.
Speaker 2:But we get that in our world. Sometimes it's like, um, you know, they want their things to out compete the sun.
Speaker 1:It's like good luck, yeah yeah, a lot of lumens in that whole sun. Um, so maybe some of the uh. Can we just chat a little bit about some of your favorite? You talked about the flyover. What are some of your favorite jobs that you guys have done?
Speaker 2:I think we've talked about a few of them. Yeah, neon, you know, neon tiger, neon dragon.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Neon whale neon animals were a thing for a while there.
Speaker 1:Where's the?
Speaker 2:whale Brown Social House in Coquitlam. Oh okay, it's about what? Is it? 10 or 12 feet wide, eight feet tall Moby Dick, huge whale.
Speaker 1:So do you get the? Hey, we need a big whale phone call.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are fun phone calls, do you? You?
Speaker 3:need the whale.
Speaker 2:We get we need lots of different things Nice.
Speaker 3:Uh, I think, uh, the one we just did a week ago, uh, Vancouver Chinatown Foundation.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Bob at Bob and Michael's place, which is the new supportive housing on East Hastings Street. And I say that because, uh, you know that project is obviously uh, catering to people that need that supportive housing in that, in that area of the city. So it's much needed. So culturally and societally it's important. But, um, we really had to to work quickly to get that thing pulled off and installed a week ago or so for their grand opening. So we're blessed to have that opportunity to do good work there. That was a good one.
Speaker 1:Did you get that deal? Yeah, nice. Wow so how do you hear about these things? What's your process? How do you get business? You just everywhere, all over the place.
Speaker 3:Well, ideally it's referral.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ideally, and we do get that.
Speaker 3:A lot of it is a lot of it's knocking on doors. You know old school cold calling, warm calling, networking. I reached out to a retail brand today Shall remain nameless, we don't have the business yet but a retail apparel brand, and I think they're going to visit us in a couple of months, visit our facility and hopefully that'll open the door to them thinking, hey, tdh, you guys do some cool stuff. We should consider you for our projects. Our store, reno, store opening.
Speaker 1:I think it's the Kim factor. Here's the thing about you is that we wouldn't be sitting here if you weren't the kind of guy you are well, we're delighted to be here, so thank you for the invite.
Speaker 1:No, I, I'm not trying to say that just to pump you up, but you know, I've seen a lot of people in business development and sales. Um, you know you, you, we met at I think we were at the, as I said, that VRCA. Yeah, at BuildX, at the BuildX thing bit in their little wine booth or whatever that was. Yeah, they had drinks at the end and yeah, you, yeah, you're just engaging right away on the right things and you're very likable. And then the good thing, what I notice is you play the long game. Well, thank you, you're not asking for anybody for anything, and you actually give before you take Thank you, which is a really good thing. I can tell that you're really good at that.
Speaker 3:Well, I appreciate that. I think that when it comes to business, we want to help our customers. I can say I mean, it sounds sort of smarmy, but that's genuinely who I am and I think, what we're about. If we can help our customers succeed, then we were along for the ride and that's a great feeling. And we're along for the ride, and that's a great feeling and it's exciting to see the end result. You know the fruits of your labor. When you drive around town or across the country and you see things that you've done, you're thinking, hey, holy smokes, this is great, we did it. So for me, that's exciting and that's the rewarding part of the work that Tristan and I do along with the rest of the TDH team. But it's not about pitching people. It's about trying to understand what they're trying to achieve and then helping them get there. That's the way I'm wired.
Speaker 1:Well, you're doing good at that, I tell you. So the last thing I want to just chat about is just permitting for a second. Has this gotten easier, harder? Where have you seen that over the past, let's say, four years? As you said, depends which municipality. Are they all kind of getting slower, or some improving, et cetera.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think my comment on that is some are better than and easier to deal with than others. Some are more progressive than others what, what is?
Speaker 1:what does progressive mean when permitting?
Speaker 2:so I think there's people have written signed bylaws yeah and that's what what we kind of have to go by. I think there's some jurisdictions that have put a lot more thought into how that applies to their municipality and how they want their place to look, and some of that can make a lot of sense. There's others where it's pretty blunt instruments of you can do this or not that, and I think there's one municipality around here where it's like you get a two-foot sign ban of channel letters on a building, for example. It allows for minimal design flexibility. I think it kind of suppresses a lot of creativity.
Speaker 2:There has to be checks and balances to this. I don't disagree with that in terms of you want to not have an over-proliferation of signage. You don't want really ugly things that detract from the visual look of a place, but it also has to have some flexibility into it for creative application of brands that enhance that experience. And what you know I think I see is some good practices in that sense. You know there's some municipalities that have kind of well-defined relaxation processes that you know aren't too onerous. They'll take a look at it and kind of give a good assessment of does this make sense or not?
Speaker 2:Even though it might be slightly outside of the sign bylaw, don't make it too expensive or too difficult of a process. It doesn't take that much longer. An actual sign permit might cost you a bit of extra money but they'll take a second look at it and, yeah, a lot of it's kind of well thought out. Here's all the different applications to buildings as to how a sign might be applied and making sure that it's something that's sufficiently flexible to allow, you know, businesses to do interesting creative things without making it look like you know a complete mess of things that you know signs that you don't want.
Speaker 1:What is the average sign permit cost? I know that they vary a lot, but typical exterior building.
Speaker 2:City fees usually not too crazy, like Vancouver right now for a sign is I was looking at it yesterday $417 for the sign. I think they charge in $187 or something for the electrical permit per sign on top of that Right, okay. So that's a bit on the higher end for most of us.
Speaker 1:So when there's a variance, how much does this blow this cost up?
Speaker 2:Usually I tell people to expect, for a simple variance, at least five grand to get the whole thing done. Not necessarily in the city fees, but all the time and labor to deal with that.
Speaker 1:But what is the city fee for a variance typically?
Speaker 2:Often around a thousand bucks or something like that. Okay, cool.
Speaker 1:You know, back in 94, we were doing the signage for a Lush store in Whistler and they all had to be sandblast wood cedar.
Speaker 2:That's still a. Thing.
Speaker 1:Is it?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, really, especially in Whistler, because like there, like if you go to Whistler I'm from the Rockies in Alberta, canmore, banff yeah, there's very kind of defined sign bylaws for those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it had to be a certain thickness and it had to be yeah, and it's to maintain the character of the community.
Speaker 2:A lot of that makes sense. But yeah, if you go to Whistler you're still looking at or especially Banff and Canmore have been dealing with a bunch of that lately where it's wood in some way that you're doing it, often sandblasted wood.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Crazy huh. Do you guys have a sandblaster?
Speaker 2:No, we don't sandblast in-house Messy, very messy, it house Messy.
Speaker 1:Very messy.
Speaker 2:It's everywhere. It's fun though, yeah, I had one of those.
Speaker 3:I had a sandblast booth it was not so good. We need a bigger space.
Speaker 1:Do you?
Speaker 3:We need a bigger production facility oh.
Speaker 2:There's freestanding signs all over the place right now, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you in your facility? Do you have like when you walk through your production facility? Is it like the different areas of production? It's very. Are they their own little culture zones? Does it kind of feel?
Speaker 2:Like in terms of personnel, no, everyone has to work together, right?
Speaker 1:No, I don't mean that I'm just like you got like white floor at everyone, lab coats. Is that the kind of thing you want to get to? It looks like a chip company. That'd be sweet.
Speaker 3:I don't think I'll ever be, there I used to work for a potato chip company decades ago.
Speaker 1:No, no, I mean a silicon chip.
Speaker 3:No, I know, okay, a different type of chip, okay.
Speaker 1:Lays potato chip.
Speaker 2:No, it wasn't Lays, I was thinking NVIDIA. But anyway to things. Some days I'm dealing with little things that we're doing a certain volume of. Other days I'm trying to fit a 30, 40 foot structure in there. We've done a bunch of those where they're 40 feet long or something you have to reconfigure. So the way our shop is set up is everything's on wheels and I can wheel it around to deal with whatever project that you're dealing with.
Speaker 1:You guys need an airplane hanger. That would be amazing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we truly need a space that's you know what we say three times bigger.
Speaker 1:They're like mini planes you guys are dealing with in there, right I mean?
Speaker 2:they can be pretty big yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this has been awesome, you guys. So for everybody, your website tdhsignscom. Perfect, and then LinkedIn.
Speaker 3:LinkedIn Okay, instagram.
Speaker 1:Instagram. You'll find us there. Tiktok Kim on TikTok.
Speaker 3:No, I'm not a TikTok guy, but maybe I should be. You don't say, maybe I should be.
Speaker 1:Are you a TikTok guy? No, I got no time TikTok.
Speaker 3:I think, if we're good, I think we're probably good with LinkedIn and Instagram.
Speaker 2:Okay, nice, I need to do more of that Connect with Kim on LinkedIn, he'll send you one of his special videos.
Speaker 1:Ah, the special videos, I like it.
Speaker 3:Well, we like to personalize the relationship right.
Speaker 1:You do, you're good at that.
Speaker 3:Okay Well, this has been awesome guys. That Okay Well, this has been awesome guys. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thank you, james. This has been amazing. Great to be here. Okay, cheers guys. Thank you. Well, that does it for another episode of the site visit. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. You can also sign up for our monthly newsletter at sitemaxsystemscom slash, the site visit, where you'll get industry insights, pro tips and everything you need to know about the site visit podcast and Sitemax, the job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and beyond. Sitemax is also the engine that powers this podcast. All right, let's get back to building.