The SiteVisit

Breaking the Silence: Mental Health Advocacy in the Construction Industry with Mike Pugh, Safety Manager at Evergreen Innovation Group

• James Faulkner

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Have you ever wondered how deeply the construction industry's culture impacts mental health? Meet Mike Pugh, Safety Manager at Evergreen Innovation Group, who shares his brave journey through recovery and his ongoing commitment to mental health advocacy. Mike's story sheds light on the strenuous pressures faced by construction workers, the culture of silence, and the necessity of supportive work environments. Discover how his extensive background in large commercial projects and his role as a safety manager are helping to transform the industry’s approach to mental well-being.

Mike learned some tough lessons throughout his journey. He opens up about the "gray areas" of life, moving away from black-and-white thinking, and balancing family responsibilities with personal struggles. His honest reflections on battling substance abuse offer hope and guidance for those on the same tumultuous path.

In this episode, we also explore practical solutions for improving mental health in the construction industry. Mike discusses the importance of changing the language surrounding mental health to reduce stigma and make conversations more approachable. Learn about the pressing need for effective mental health programs from the ground up and how fostering open dialogue can create a culture where seeking help is as normalized as adhering to physical safety protocols. This episode promises to be a beacon of hope and a call to action for those working in high-stress, physically demanding environments.

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Speaker 1:

Mike, how are you doing today, sir?

Speaker 2:

I'm doing great, and you.

Speaker 1:

I am doing pretty well. Today it's very, very hot in Vancouver, yeah, so it's probably lots of construction being done, so that's good Not raining.

Speaker 2:

Yes, absolutely Hot in Sacramento, where I'm at today too.

Speaker 1:

So thank you very much for getting on this interview today. We found you via that article about mental health and construction and suicide rates, etc. And you know, I'm not sure if you've heard many of the podcasts that we've been doing in the past, but this keeps coming up and keeps coming up in terms of how we need a larger workforce. As you know, the generations are changing and we need more people to come into the construction industry, and in order to have people in there, it needs to seem like a healthy environment, one that is going to be to foster happiness and fulfillment, etc. And yet what we do here is a lot of pain, and so it's sort of our obligation here at the site visit and also with SiteMax, we have, you know, our application field. Workers use it every day and you know we have an interface and a support to these people, so we want to make sure that we are doing our best to advocate for their mental health and whatever we can do as well.

Speaker 1:

I also spoke to Josh, who is in the article as well, and that's why I have him on as well later today. So this is pretty cool. Welcome to the Site Visit. Podcast Leadership and perspective from construction with your host, james Falkner. Business as usual, as it has been for so long now that it goes back to what we were talking about before and hitting the reset button. You know, you read all the books, you read the email, you read Scaling Up, you read Good, so great, you know.

Speaker 2:

I could go on. We got to a place where we found the secret serum. We found the secret potion we can get the workers in. We know where to get them. Once I was on the job site for a while and actually we had a semester concrete and I ordered like a pre-finished patio out front of the site trailer. I was down at Dallas and a guy just hit me up on LinkedIn out of the blue and said he was driving from Oklahoma to Dallas to meet with me because he heard the Faber Connect platform on your guys' podcast Own it, crush it and love it.

Speaker 1:

And we celebrate these values every single day. Let's get down to it. So maybe, mike, why don't you just take us through your background, maybe the companies you've worked at, the positions you've worked at, just so people can get an idea of the path that you've taken in construction yourself?

Speaker 2:

Perfect? Yeah, absolutely. I am a retired 35-year veteran of the HVAC industry and large commercial projects in Northern California a little bit in Southern California, but mostly Northern California Hospital, high tech just a lot of great jobs in the industry. Worked for two companies for about 25 years between the two of them, hit my bottom in recovery at one of them and then came back up in the other one, and then a couple odd and end jobs to round out my career.

Speaker 2:

I retired at 52 years of age in 2014 and got into doing some other stuff outdoor adventure, sports and things like that, trying to help kids and other things and COVID came along.

Speaker 2:

I was traveling, I was doing other things and I kind of got stuck on my buddy's ranch here in Northern California. I had left the state and was traveling, like I said, and so I decided to get back into safety, um, or into construction, because I can make good money, I have a large background, uh, knowledge base, and so I ended up, uh, getting a job a good one safety manager of a construction company, yep and ended up at AGC's Safety and Health Conference in Washington DC in 2022. I walked into the building and was approached because someone found out I was in recovery and they didn't have someone available right at that moment or were looking for help, and so I said, sure, and the rest is kind of history with that. I did that video for AGC of America. I've been speaking and talking about mental health and my story in construction for the last three years and I'm now at another company. I'm at a company called EIG, which is DPR's electrical division, dpr construction.

Speaker 1:

Okay and yeah, so kind of where I'm at, and so you were doing safety compliance there now.

Speaker 2:

Yes, safety manager in the Northwest Division.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so are you on-site. Then Are you a safety manager on-site? You're going there or do you oversee a team of people at different sites?

Speaker 2:

I am the only one here, so I go from Phoenix to Northern California and we're looking to expand up north as well, but we are small and just starting out in this region. So I'm the safety manager coordinator. I inspect the jobs, I do onboarding, I do site visits, I do the whole thing.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so let's just go back to when you say you're in recovery. Not everyone knows your story, so maybe let's just talk about that. When you say recovery, so what is it recovering from?

Speaker 2:

Yeah well that's a great thing. I'd like to start off with a couple little things just to kind of give you an idea where I come from in this conversation. Great, so one of them I would like to talk about is normal, right, so I grew up as a kid in a normal household with dysfunction in the normal range, right? So I like to talk about the gray area right.

Speaker 2:

The gray area is that I always looked at my life as black and white. I had the worst parents. I had the best parents. You know all of the things that we compare other people to, all of the mental head games that we have.

Speaker 1:

So the black and white binaries of everything, and you're saying everything's in the gray. Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so focusing on the gray since I got into recovery 25 years ago has changed my life, but before that I couldn't see that. I, you know I had a good childhood. We did a lot of great things, but I found substances. You know, early on in my high school days ninth, 10th grade I was smoking pot and drinking. But I was also that guy that could hold a job and do well and go after my goals. But I loved the effect, you know, produced by substances and alcohol. And you know I like to party and I like adventure, I like adrenaline, I like all that stuff and so did all my friends and the people I hung out with. I wanted to be a forest ranger or a game warden or something and I just by the time I reached my senior year, I didn't have the grades anymore.

Speaker 2:

Other things got in the way. I had habits and beliefs as a child and a value system. But the substances and the lifestyle slowly erode and you change a couple of habits and then your belief system changes. And you change a couple of habits and then your belief system changes and then your values change. And I think that's a very common place to be in as someone from the 60s and 70s, but also up until now. I mean, we have good intentions and we grow up and then we find a path, something that feels good, and we just follow it because it feels good. We don't know we're going to be grabbed by it and drug under, and you know we just we're having fun. So the recovery I ended up I don't know how. So that question is a long one, going through my childhood.

Speaker 2:

I got a DUI right out of high school. It wasn't my fault. You see, I'm a victim, right, it's somebody else's fault. I was skiing in Colorado, coming down into the resort at noon, and I ended up getting drunk in the resort and went into a blackout. And I came to and it's midnight dark, I'm on flat land, I'm in a car with some people and they jump into the back seat and I'm in the front seat. So I pull over, take the steering wheel and pull over and the police are behind us and I have no idea where I am really. But I come to, so to speak, and that event was like one of those that happened when I intend to set out just to have some fun, but the alcohol and drugs kind of take over and they grab you and you end up in places you never intended to be. The cops didn't want to hear my story. The road was closed, it was in a blizzard, but my buddy had been driving like five miles an hour on the interstate and I didn't know this. I just was. I was asleep, or blacked out as we call it, and so I was mad at him for putting me in that position, even though, you know, years later I could see that I put me in that position Right.

Speaker 2:

So lots of stories like that around drinking and partying and having a good time turned into not so good. Having a wife and kids and being that guy that would work hard and go to the tailgate at three o'clock in the afternoon when it's 100 degrees out, and you end up at the tailgate with your friends that you're working with and you have a few beers and you watch the guy across from you have two beers and go home and be fine and be a good dad and a good husband. And I could do that once in a while and so I would. But after years in recovery I know that I was an alcoholic then as well, but at the time you're just looking at people and trying to compare, like how does he do that? How does he not end up getting drunk? How does he manage his life? He's better than I, am right, because I can't do that.

Speaker 2:

But then I get on a winning streak and I'll go home and be a good dad and a good husband and read bedtime stories and all the things I dreamed of as a kid when I wanted to have a family. And I'll call the wife and it'll be a random four o'clock in the afternoon and I'll say, hey, I'm gonna have a couple of beers, I'll be home in time to take the kids to soccer or whatever. And she's like, are you sure? You know, because she knows already, right, we hurt the people that we love due to the these actions. Right, my belief system at the time was that you know, I don't know what I'm doing, but I I want to have fun, I want to, you know, participate. I don't want to be that guy that goes home. So I have those couple of beers and and usually I can do that and go home and I'm comparing myself, like I said, to the other guys.

Speaker 2:

But there's that time it might be six months in between where I come home and it's four in the morning, my laundry spread across the front lawn and I really have no idea how I got there. The bank account's empty, you know, and so I don't know how to control this behavior. I swear it off for six months and it's a constant mental battle to be like normal, like the other guys that I see, right, I don't know what's going on with their lives. They could be going through the same thing, but I compare them to their outsides and my insides, right. So that whole mental thing about trying to just get along and go to work and be a good guy and all of those kind of things really kind of creeps up on you and grabs you and then it has control. And then I had no control and I couldn't predict when that was going to happen. So I spent many, many years, you know, up into my 30s, trying to control that and trying to understand it. And there was no understanding it, there was no controlling it. It picked when it was going to happen and I had to kind of go along with it. We went to counseling, we talked about it, we, you know, and I just thought I was, you know, a decent guy trying to get along in the world, right. So it's, it's brutal, it's tough, and I see a lot of people doing that with.

Speaker 2:

So when we talk about mental health, I want to talk about like that gray area, right. So mental health includes our emotional, psychological and social well-being. I'm going to give us the high bar, right. So it affects how we think, how we feel, how we act. It also determines how we handle stress, relate to others and make healthy choices, right. So everything below that is mental illness, in my opinion. Right. Everybody has something we all you know in construction. Maybe it's a secondary job, maybe we wanted, like, I had other dreams, I wanted it to be something else, but I found a guy that knew a guy and got me a job and it pays well and I got in and you know it's 40 years later and it paid off and it paid well.

Speaker 2:

But it's hot hard work or it's cold hard work. You know it is tough and I was in management a lot. I was in superintendent form and roles probably 25 years without the tools and it's still brutal. Right, it's still. You're out there in the trenches with the guys managing people and you're just trying to do the best you can. So kind of to sum up what happened with us at the end in 1997, we had three deaths in our family that were brutal. We didn't my wife and I didn't know how to handle those things. My father-in-law was killed by an anesthesiologist in a hospital in like February and then my sister-in-law was killed by her boyfriend on a boat a couple times, ran over not killed a couple of times, but run over a couple of times and that was a trial that we attended and I was really angry and trying to blame everything. Also at that, correlating with all of that was our finances were a wreck. So we're looking for things to fix that Our home life.

Speaker 2:

We thought we were being noble by having my wife stay home, and it was a great idea to have her stay home and raise the kids and participate in school. She got assaulted by a student at school one time, you know, and so we were always looking for the next solution, the next way out to make our lives better, and we were always struggling financially. So when all of this happened, I kind of quit going to work, I was going to trials and trying to show up, and it was a couple months after my sister-in-law was killed. My dad died months after my sister-in-law was killed. My dad died, died at 62, pretty young, seemingly natural causes, and so like that was just the edge right.

Speaker 2:

And then my daughter approached me at four in the morning one time and asked I won't say any names, but if he had killed his aunt, my sister-in-law, the guy that ran her over on a boat and I lost it, we had hidden most of that and said it was kind of an accident, and at that moment I kind of snapped, I didn't know what to do, and so I took my daughter up into the woods and we just chatted and threw rocks in the lake and tried to get through that day, but I didn't call in, you know, and I slowly became unemployable. I just wanted to be a good dad and fix everything, and there was no way to do that Right.

Speaker 2:

And so I ended up a couple months later abandoning my family. I couldn't drink enough or use enough drugs to quiet this thing, enough to come up with a plan to make everything work out. And my wife was in the same condition and she's, you know, ended up moving back with her family and I ended up moving in, you know, into almost a homeless state. And so that doesn't happen to everyone those kind of issues, but they happen to a lot of people. And so my and my wife's coping skills revolved around alcohol and drugs, like we can't drink enough to numb the pain. And so my bosses and everyone that I worked with, they knew me, they loved our family. We were a family company, you know, three or 400 people in a company, you know you get to know everyone for 10, 15 years. And so they basically watched me circle the drain On hindsight and looking back and actually having a conversation with the vice president at that time, who was a friend of mine, which I can get into later, I'll just say it now.

Speaker 2:

But it was like three years after I was sober, he's like get in the truck, you know, and I'm like okay, so I went back to work at another company and he was at that company and he's like so what happened? And I'm like, what do you mean? What happened? And he knew the story but he didn't know why I was not working you know and why I did what I did.

Speaker 2:

And I said, well, you know, I just couldn't do it anymore. I had nothing left. I couldn't. I had no plans, no ideas, no way to do it. I was insane. And he said, well, we tried to help. And I'm like in what way? I was almost angry with him. And he said, well, I put those things in your check and I'm like things, and he goes yeah, from the union, the assistance program, and I'm like I thought everybody got them right. And so no one actually came up to me and said how can we help? We know you've gone through this, we know you're struggling, we know you've got an alcohol problem. How can we help you? Right, if I had cancer, they'd be lining up and doing barbecues and fundraisers and everything right. But when it's alcohol or drug or mental health, which mental health and substance abuse, alcoholism, drug addiction are all under that mental health umbrella? That's that gray area.

Speaker 1:

I see.

Speaker 2:

Right. So those are symptoms and solutions, right? If I'm insane in retrospect to my behavior around situations that come up in my life, I'm treating myself by drinking I's, I'm being my own doctor, right? Well, the doctors don't do a whole lot better sometimes at helping us either. They give us medications that spin us out. They, you know, do a lot of. You know, if you have an injury, like a back injury or something, they're going to give you medications, opioids and all of that. Um, but the bottom line was there were 30, 40 guys behind me ready to take my place when I wasn't there, right, you know? Um, and in that regards, you know, I couldn't show up anymore. I couldn't show up anymore. And so when I had this conversation with my boss at the time, you know he's saying like we tried to help, but how I'm kind of like losing my train of thought.

Speaker 1:

I understand what you're saying so to you. You didn't actually see any obvious reach out for help. It was just sort of if they said they put something in your check. There was some communication from the union. That was about it. There wasn't a pull you aside. We need to chat, Mike.

Speaker 2:

Right, exactly. And you know I wasn't probably honest either. You know, in my communications I'm blaming it on the courts and having to be away from my family and all of the other things that slowly, over a six month period, made me unemployable. It's not like one day I just decided not to go to work. It was a series of long, grueling events, you know. That happened over time. So you know I got ended up.

Speaker 2:

My brother had some time in recovery and he ended up showing up at a house that I was at and you know he asked me how my life was, and I knew at that moment, because of his behavior over the eight years prior to that, that he had changed his life. And so at that moment, when he asked if I wanted help, I knew that I could do what he did and it would work. I didn't know, even know what it was, but I knew he was not the same guy. He was the black sheep. He's a couple of years younger than me. He was the problem child. I had it all going on, right. But it's funny now we we talk and joke all the time Like how's your life?

Speaker 2:

It's freaking amazing, right. But back then he was able to get to me and so I ended up going to his house for about a year and getting sober and clean. That was on June 12th of 1999. And I've been sober since. So yeah, that's kind of the backstory you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's so just an observation. When I'm listening to you here, I'm thinking, you know, I can see you on the video screen as saying you're not in person and you know I think of the sort of and this is kind of a radioactive comment, but I see this vilification of the male out there and I listen to you, I listen to your story, I can see the kindness in you and I think you're what America represents, you're a man of America, what keeps America strong. And you had to go through all of this. And that's the part I find is difficult for me, because when I hear someone as genuine as yours, you seem like one of those soft, tough, teddy bear kind of guys. Like you would stick your neck out for someone and you've helped build America with all the jobs you've done over the time. You've got all this knowledge and the fact that you had to go through this is very difficult. And I'm trying to you know in the notes that I sent you, trying to you know in the notes that I sent you, I'm trying to decode why, in construction specifically, that this can creep in. And let me ask you what you think of this.

Speaker 1:

When a developer or whoever is funding a building. Okay, typically a developer or, if you're doing a TI, it's like you know who have a property owner, et cetera. But typically you're doing a new build at some kind of development company or government or whatever. They have a purpose that they have set out to vision for a project. They're all excited about it. They do their thing, they've done their planning. It's their baby and each sub-trade or general contractor or site personnel has to live out their purpose and it might not necessarily be theirs. So they're doing a job for whatever life circumstance they have.

Speaker 1:

Some of them wanted to become a general contractor, someone wanted to become a superintendent, someone had the family who you know. They helped with the tools when they were a kid and they've worked their way up and this is their dream. They love construction. There's others who have. They have to have that job. And when you have to have that job and you're going seemingly paycheck to paycheck, it doesn't matter how much money you make. It's the delta between how much your life costs and how much money you make. And if you grind your check and your account down to zero every time, it doesn't matter if you make 150 grand. If your life costs 150 grand, you're still in the same spot as someone making 40 grand and their life costs 40 grand.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

So what you end up is you end up in this zero sum game of living out someone else's purpose and you forget about yourself.

Speaker 2:

That's a great analogy and a great truth.

Speaker 1:

So just a question is so when you know the word altruism, you know you're doing something for some, you know for a higher purpose. I think people need sort of a higher purpose altruism, personal altruism for themselves. That is like why am I doing this? You know, why am I going through this and what's difficult about this? One thing that you said that really struck me when you said there was a lineup of people wanting your job for your position and that makes it very competitive and as a male you are. I don't know what path you went through, but mental health wasn't really a term probably way back then. It's only now we've sort of becoming programs around this and having some labels around it for that dialogue and vocabulary and conversation. But back then you probably were just like I'm not going to admit to anybody that I'm broken.

Speaker 2:

No, absolutely not, and that's still true today. I get a lot of that. For one, it's often seasonal work, so you have to work as strong and as hard as you can for a six or a nine month period, because then you're rained out. A lot of civil jobs are that way, with the rains and especially where you're at right, yeah. So yeah, you get a lot of guys.

Speaker 2:

I can't say anything or I will lose my job, right. So that's a very real thing, and I went through a lot of that where I would not tell the truth about how I was doing, because I didn't want to become that person I was. It's almost a stoic position to. I got to be there no matter what. To I got to be there no matter what. And then when that became, it's like the all the. It's not necessarily like well, I guess it is. It's lying. I was lying to my bosses about what's going on at home to cover up for my behavior. That was getting more erratic, right, and so I'm trying to hide who and what's really going on. I'm trying to laugh things off.

Speaker 2:

I'm being, you know, 20 minutes late here and there, because you know, and from a guy that was always on time if I'm not 15 minutes early, I'm 10 minutes late, kind of thing, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And so those little things start creeping up on you, and that's. You know a lot of what happens when we're trying to identify these things right as far as how do you identify mental health issues in your coworkers? And then how do you get people to talk about it? Right, they don't want to talk about it, they don't want you to know, and it's a very difficult subject.

Speaker 1:

So, let's just hypothesize for a second. Let's just say that we take this situation that you have, and then you worked in the auto industry okay, it's not construction, right. And you worked at a dealership. Okay, let's say, you're a hot sales guy and you were selling lots of Mercedes or whatever it is. And then there was this well, mike's not doing that well, kind of thing. Same situation Would the auto industry just churn you out? Would they be like, eh, he's broken. Next, they probably would. Yes, I think most other industries do that. They just go. Someone's just not up for the job. Whereas in construction now is the reason that we're taking this on because of the knowledge, the lack of input we have at the top of the funnel to build America, build North America. What is the? Or is it just a kindness thing? I'm trying to just understand.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I understand and we've had a lot of talks about this nationally with several. I belong to AGC of California as well. The cost there is a four to one return on investment on mental health dollars spent. Now research where they looked at the money spent versus how much does it cost to train?

Speaker 2:

a 20-year superintendent? How many hundreds of thousands of dollars do you spend, including salaries and everything, to train someone in your system? What is it going to cost to replace that guy? Now, right, where before our boss, my boss was, or? I have to be careful what I say A lot of people and I don't use the word everyone, but a lot of people in construction were doing the same behavior as I was.

Speaker 2:

I added, you know, with those added deaths and deep emotional traumas. I couldn't maintain that. Otherwise, if those things didn't happen, maybe I would still be drinking and still be doing you know, some of the things I was doing and being okay, but they didn't right for me, and so how much it's like they weren't willing at the time to look at and granted, this is that gray area. They weren't like throwing me away, they just gave me enough rope to like hang myself. I didn't show up, I abandoned my job. I own that, I see. Okay, right, they didn't send me away. They just like we don't know what to do. You have a job, you're welcome here if you can show up and fix this, but I couldn't right. And so I think in the construction industry, we want to help people and we want them to show up, and and yet the bottom line was back then is go home and get your crap together and come back when you're ready to work.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And that's no longer applicable. We can't afford to do that anymore, because that line that was there to replace me is gone. Gotcha, there's nobody there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, gotcha.

Speaker 2:

So it's tough.

Speaker 1:

So okay. So language is really important for this stuff, I find, because we personally resonate with our own identity when we attach labels to ourselves and sometimes we're just not prepared to wear that or fly that flag personally. So what I mean specifically is the word mental health, that term, in my opinion you can call me crazy, I think there needs to be that and some other term which is something around life stress and because mental health sounds like autism, it sounds like part of the spectrum of, you know, down syndrome. All of those are mental health problems, right, and no one wants to be part of that camp if possible the white coat, the insane asylums, jack nicholson and the show.

Speaker 1:

You know all all of that stuff Right and and because? Because what you were dealing with was an acute version of life stress. You had a lot going on, Okay, but you're not you. You weren't born with some condition. Right, you might've been susceptible by behavior, of the way you see things, for addiction. Maybe possibly you know addictive personality a lot of people have that.

Speaker 2:

Hereditary yeah.

Speaker 1:

So something there, right, but it's not like. It's not like you. You know you had to be on medication, you know when you're, you know, 10 years old, because you'd scream at the teachers. It's not, you don't have that right. So so I think that there is.

Speaker 2:

We call it normal in most respects normal in most respects, exactly so.

Speaker 1:

So I I think that there is a communication problem in general of the word mental health, and this is what I found, like you know, before I was in construction um, I was a brand communication person, so and I used to deal with language all the time. And, as a matter of fact, there's a guy named Frank Lutz Okay, he's the one, he's a political language guy, speech writer, et cetera. He changed global warming to climate change. Okay, just those words, right? Okay, because global warming sounds terrible. Climate change is whatever, right? Okay, because global warming sounds terrible, climate change is whatever Yep.

Speaker 1:

So mental health, though, is like the global warming words it's too extreme, it means the wrong things, it means things people don't want to subscribe to. So I definitely think, from a communications point of view, something needs to be looked at here on how do we create programs for people who are going through acute life stress, because that doesn't sound bad. Everyone has that, and so Do you think it's where you are on the spectrum of life. Stress is so crazy because everyone has it. It just depends on what it is, and is there a certain threshold when that becomes to a point where it completely overtakes the life?

Speaker 2:

that language is that if I'm a general contractor and a project manager and I have a budget and I want all of a sudden for my safety guy to come in and talk and take, if I have 300 people on the job and we're going to spend four hours on a mental health training, get the hell back to work. What are you talking about? We're not going to spend that money to do that. Are you crazy? So that's kind of what we're up against, right? I know?

Speaker 1:

You're up against high building costs, you're up against timelines, you're up against permitting that takes forever. You're up the developers. So here's a question for you, like, let's say that the I know this is crazy to say and it sounds super trite by saying it. So you have all the people who are actually building the building you were doing this the people who are putting the hard work, and the hard labor it's hard on the body, etc. Then you have the developers still in construction. They're still in that category, and let's say that their bank financing says sorry, we're not going to give you your next tranche because of X, y, z, and that guy goes deep in the bottle. No one's looking out for that person, no one's going to be like hey, you know what You're going through. Stress.

Speaker 1:

So at what point down the line does an estimator get it? Does a project manager get it, or does only the people on the field get it? So so I think that this is a very. It's so difficult, it's so difficult to discern where the inputs, where the outputs are, where the thresholds, who can get help, who can't. How much money do we spend doing this? Because the you know, when you talk about the, it's a four to one return-one return on these mental health programs. But yeah, that's because it takes that amount of time to retrain a superintendent. Yes, but what about an estimator?

Speaker 2:

Same.

Speaker 1:

I know, but does an estimator get that? If you see what I mean.

Speaker 2:

So I can speak. So what's going on now? And I believe that this is true for a lot of large contractors? I work for DPR Construction. We're a national, international company. We are spending a lot of money at every level to make sure that our benefit package, our mental health, communication and all of that is reaching everyone in the company. I know that I know 20 other large giant companies that are doing that and I know some small ones that are doing that.

Speaker 2:

I've gotten calls from a lot of people because of my association with AGC of America to like what are we do? What do we do? We're 25 guys and I got a superintendent that's ready to like jump off a bridge, but you know how do I help that person, and so I have experience in my recovery and I can share what I did, but I can't tell you what to do. But I can make it normal to talk like this.

Speaker 2:

Right, that seems to be my job in my, in my company that I'm working with is I'm going and they're using me to uh, speak with authority about something that destroyed me, destroyed my life, so that maybe they can find some help, right, it's like. So I know a lot of other people that are doing this Brandy uh or uh uh, mandy Kime and Brandon Anderson with AGC that started the mental health task force. They're working with country or with companies all over the country normalizing. I wish and I agree we should come up with a different term than mental health. I prefer mental illness because mental health is this bar that nobody I know can ever achieve.

Speaker 2:

But you know it's like we're all somewhere below that and in the middle Right. No one's perfect Right.

Speaker 1:

Everyone has a spiritual guy.

Speaker 2:

And so I've sought spiritual tools, you know, to change my life and a lot of other things. But we have to make it okay for an employee to use the assistance programs provided because and give them that time and guarantee their job back when they they do that rather than go home and get your shit together and come back when you're ready to work yeah right.

Speaker 2:

So my job and I know the AGC is doing a lot around it. I know that Construction Alliance is doing a lot of stuff. I know you're you guys are doing a lot. We're working on it Right, and there's still those people out there that I don't need to hear this. I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and so it's a battle.

Speaker 2:

It's so. This is seems to be what I been led to to champion and be a part of. You know so.

Speaker 1:

So you you mentioned something about the sort of spiraling, spiraling down the drain kind of thing. Um, that was in the article and I wrote that note too. Is um like that, that reach out, just like just to make sure that that's swirl doesn't start happening like there must be? And you've probably seen these programs of these sort of signals of when this can kind of start and what to look for, to look for in your co-workers, because I think that's it's not necessarily a um, just a top-down initiative. This needs needs to be a linear one as well, Absolutely, Whereas your coworkers are like you know what? I should go probably talk to Kevin or Stacy, because Mike's not on today. He's not good that kind of.

Speaker 2:

Thing.

Speaker 1:

And it has to come from a place of kindness, that it's not a label anymore, it's not like because the thing is as as guys, we're proud too. That's the hard part. Everyone's so proud to be strong, because that is the thing, the yeah, I can get that done person those are the people who build buildings. It's the yeah, I can get that done. Mindset. And when you're saying that, well, maybe I can't get that done, your whole identity is shaken for a moment.

Speaker 1:

And really, addiction and getting yourself in a bottle or doing substances or whatever that is, is you're trying to get away from that image. You think, if you have your of yourself like that self-loathing is what you're trying to get away from exactly. So that's a very difficult thing to to to uh level set when you're in this moment of I feel terrible as it is. That's why I'm the way I am right now. And now you're gonna call me something else, like I'm broken or whatever, and I'm gonna, for temporarily I'm gonna feel even worse right but with the promise actually, if you go through this program, you will be okay and you won't have to have these labels anymore.

Speaker 1:

So there's, you know, I have a. I have a friend of mine who, uh, was in the music business and was quite famous, and the whole band broke up because he had an addiction, and I knew him at that. You know, I was hanging out with him at that time and you know what he talks to me about. It's crazy how it can just blow up your entire world, and I think where it can just blow up your entire world, and I think where I'd like to see this is that we have an open dialogue that makes this right now. Here's where I'm going with this, mike.

Speaker 1:

Right now, I don't think the language is cerebral enough, I don't think it's smart enough and I don't think it hooks people in a positive way, because what we need is we need some kind of a program, that's a name, that it's like okay, sean is going through this thing and it doesn't sound bad, it doesn't sound weak, it sounds strong, it sounds like there has to be this good for him rather than oh shit, I hope he's okay. Do you know what I mean? There has to be this uptick thing, because then Sean will be like yeah, I'm doing this thing, man, I feel better than I did yesterday. This is awesome. Yeah, I'll see you guys. Blah, blah, blah. The job site kind of. It's clearly not as visceral and brutal as war is by any means, but do you think there is still?

Speaker 2:

the battling with yourself, battling with your body, battling with materials, battling with to get things done. That it's very hard on the mind, it's stressful, it's competitive and the conditions aren't always wonderful. It's not an office job, for sure. We're working on a job where the heat index is like 117. We've got, you know, california has a new heat index rule and so we've got to be out there monitoring and making sure we have shade and, you know, water.

Speaker 2:

And back when I was, you know, 20, 25, 30 years ago, you brought your own water and you took care of your own self and nobody did that for you. You had to do that for yourself. Now you know it's one of those things like mental health, mental illness, heat illness, high risk, fall protection. It's just part of the training. If we can make all of that the same, where we look at mental health and getting some psychology appointments or some meditation apps or different things like that, that equate evenly with a fall protection plan or a heat illness plan, right, those should all be in the same language taking care of our workers. But they're not. So your point is like exactly that how do we make that the easy way out instead of you know, the other way?

Speaker 1:

Well, I mean, you hear, I mean, I hear I got quite a few friends in the US. I'm in Canada, here, and they're always like you know, my therapist this. I got quite a few friends in the U? S. I'm in Canada, here, and they're always like you know, my therapist this, my therapist that, and it's like it just rolls off their tongue. It's like does everyone have one of these? Like pretty normal to me, and yet you have a therapist. It's like okay, well, why can't it just be that? Like, why can't it be an occupational therapist?

Speaker 2:

Right, Well it, it's because I, I'm going to the bar right after work. You're going to, you know, you're going to join me and, um, that bravado and the machoism and all of that is still strong and true Um unfortunately so.

Speaker 1:

do you think that's ever going to?

Speaker 2:

I mean, like, I mean, no, it's it, can't, it can't go away, you? No, it's it, can't go away.

Speaker 1:

You watch how little boys play, it's never going to change. You know, they grow up to be men. And there's just I don't know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you know I have all kinds of recovery statistics and none of them really. You know I can't back them all up, they're just stuff I've heard over the years. But they say 10 percent of the population is alcoholic and all you have to do is look at the football branding and the alcohol and the partying and all of that of which I was a big part of back in the day. I had a bar in my garage with all the beer labels all over, you know, and things like that, and the shirts and NASCAR, whatever you know. It was all part of the environment and and I don't have that today, but it's instilled that like, if you can't handle your alcohol or your, then yeah, you're not one of us.

Speaker 2:

Oh, interesting yeah do all of that just to fit in right and just to be a part of, because inside they don't feel they're a part of right. So all of that addiction type stuff is an ability or is a an attempt to try to make someone feel better about themselves by being a part of something else right, it's a tribal thing.

Speaker 1:

I mean it's yeah, absolutely so, it's that. Uh, you know I can drink you under the table kind of thing. Right, it's that. It's that, you know. Oh, oh yeah, mike can take down a 2-4 and play golf perfectly after this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

It's all of these like medal of honor things about how much you can drink. It's kind of weird, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah it's interesting. I like the term interesting because I used to judge everything a lot and still have that tendency, but interesting kind of takes all that away. It's like isn't that interesting, right? It's just a term I learned in recovery that I love.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is good, it is.

Speaker 2:

Because when something's, interesting.

Speaker 1:

You can be curious about it and try and discover it.

Speaker 2:

You don't have to solve it. I don't have to blame someone else, I can. Just that's interesting, yeah that someone else.

Speaker 1:

I can just that's interesting. Yeah, that is interesting. Yeah, I'm gonna say that today at dinner like honey, that's interesting exactly anyway.

Speaker 1:

So this has been um. I would like to have another follow-up conversation with you because I'm going to have josh on um, who was also in that article as well, and um, yeah, he has an organization that I think we're going to try and help him with that he's putting together. So that's going to be kind of cool. But you know, before we go, I mean, do you have any advice for people who might be listening to this thing? God, I don't really know how to even start this. I'm feeling kind of what Mike felt, or like what would you suggest people, how do they talk to their boss?

Speaker 2:

So there's so many different like things that could be troubling someone, so I only really know about the ones that troubled me. So, like alcohol and drugs and stuff, you know. Um, so I went to recovery meetings for and I still do um, so if you ever think you might have a problem with anything like that, pop into one of those meetings and just see if you fit, and you're likely you'll hear something and you'll go oh crap, this is where I belong and uh, it can change your life. Um, I went to a therapist for a while around the forensic photos that I saw of my sister-in-law and different things like that that troubled me. Well, me well, 10, 15 years into my recovery, um, yeah, and um, I did emdr, which is eye movement desensitization, move, something like that. I can't remember the name of it, but it was uh, created for the iraqi soldiers after desert storm yeah and it works extremely well.

Speaker 2:

I can't even even imagine what those pictures look like today. The emotion's been removed. The visualization part of it has been removed. I don't have that. I can remember the event but aside from that, it affects me in no other way other than I'm sad my kids don't have their aunt. You know what I mean? I gotcha.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so there's a lot of good things, the employee assistance programs. Just call. The 988 number is now up and live. That's AGC's promoting that heavily. You can just call and say hey and maybe just listen to somebody or talk to somebody. You don't have to even give them your name, right. So there's a lot of different things that are coming out now that are supportive and helpful. But yeah, we can. You know, some people go to church, some people you know confide. I'll tell you the one thing that I get the most feedback on. When I like during safety week, which is the first week in May, I spoke four or five different times on job sites with a couple hundred people and I had a buddy that was on that job site, that kind of knew me back then, back 25 years ago, and he texted me and he said nobody said anything after your talk. But when you go back to the gang box and that one-on-one conversation, he said he heard more than one person say that affected me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, in a good way, yeah, so that feedback.

Speaker 2:

I don't get to hear what my talks kind of do for people Right Often, but once in a while I'll get a glimpse. I had one guy come up and say you know, five months ago I heard you, or whatever. I have five months sober now. I went home and told my wife.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I don't get to pick who I help, I just get to be that, I get to be here.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, mike, thank you for everything that you're doing for everyone. I'm at the really cool thing about this. You've turned all of that pain, everything that you're doing for everyone. I'm the really cool thing about this. You know all of the. You've turned all of that pain. You've turned all of that situational drama you've had to go through and trauma and you're turning this into that purpose thing that we were talking about earlier. You're, you have this purpose now of helping people and it probably feels really good.

Speaker 2:

It does.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so congratulations on that, because that's a great thing thank you, thank you all right? Um, this has been fantastic. Um, how to? So how do people get hold of you if you're there or want to help with the program or um, yeah, I can be reached at mikepu at eigllccom. Um, that's probably the easiest way okay, well, well, this has been great. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2:

Thank you.

Speaker 1:

You're welcome. Well, that does it for another episode of the site visit. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. You can also sign up for a monthly newsletter at sitemaxsystemscom slash, the site visit, where you'll get industry insights, pro tips and everything you need to know about the site visit podcast and Sitemax, the job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and beyond. Sitemax is also the engine that powers this podcast. All right, let's get back to building.