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ICBA Generals 2024 E3 | LIVE IN THE CROWD | Unveiling Alberta's Construction Boom with Mike Martens, President at ICBA Alberta

• James Faulkner

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What if the success of one industry could elevate an entire region's economy and standards of living? At Meet the Generals and Owners trade show floor, we had an interesting conversation with Mike Martens, President of ICBA Alberta, to unravel the remarkable growth of Alberta's construction sector. Mike pulls back the curtain on the province's industrial projects, revealing how Alberta's oil and gas sector's massive influence sets it apart from British Columbia. From the political and environmental impacts to the sheer scale of workforce requirements, Mike sheds light on the distinctive dynamics that shape Alberta's construction landscape.

With Mike, we explore how this sector not only boosts wages across various fields but also supports crucial public services. We delve into the construction sector's outlook on the new government and discuss significant shifts in apprenticeship sponsorship and government procurement. The conversation paints a comprehensive picture of the challenges and opportunities facing Alberta's construction industry.

Navigating the complexities of collaboration and competition in construction requires resilience and adaptability. Reflecting on the COVID-19 pandemic, Mike shares compelling stories of competitors coming together for mutual benefit and the professional ethos that keeps the industry moving forward. We touch upon litigation's role in construction, comparing it to the combative yet respectful nature of sports, and highlight inspiring success stories from within the sector. Tune in to hear how perseverance and mental toughness forge pathways to remarkable career growth in the construction industry.

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Speaker 1:

Mr Mike Martins.

Speaker 2:

Is that right?

Speaker 1:

Martins, martins, pleasure to be with you. Yeah, pleasure to all the way from well, not all the way Calgary, yeah, calgary In Europe. How far is the flight? How far can you go in Europe for the same flight as from Alberta to Vancouver? Probably like.

Speaker 2:

Almost the whole way across. It's a thousand kilometers, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Crazy right, yeah, way across it's a thousand kilometers?

Speaker 2:

yeah crazy right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, welcome to the site. Visit podcast leadership and perspective from construction with your host, james balkner live off the show floor at icbas.

Speaker 2:

Meet the generals 2024. Meet the.

Speaker 1:

Generals 2024. So you are president of ICBA Alberta, and that's a new thing, correct, that's?

Speaker 2:

correct.

Speaker 1:

So how long have you been doing this for?

Speaker 2:

16 months now January of 2023, we started the new chapter. Now ICBA had been doing business in Alberta and, as many people know, icba is both an association and a group health benefits provider and the group health benefits side of things had been in Alberta for maybe 10 years.

Speaker 1:

I see okay.

Speaker 2:

About four years ago, icba purchased a Calgary-based benefits business and acquired their local business and their expertise Interesting. Their owner and staff are now on our staff. So Chris did this. That's right, he's a very, very industrious fellow. It's fantastic working from him and learning from somebody who's a significant force both within the construction industry but the political sector and the general business sector.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's pretty switched on.

Speaker 2:

It's really a privilege to work with them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, nice, so 16 months. So what have you in this 16 months, what have you seen changed? Where are we at today? You and I had a discussion a couple of weeks ago in sort of more as, like I would say, less professional, just as sort of friends almost, which we're new friends, which is great.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think what has changed Alberta-wise? What do you see when you're here in BC? What do you see in Alberta? Obviously there's the oil side of the business and a lot of contractors are involved in as well. Mostly here it's mostly just construction, yes, whereas there they've got the whole oil side of it.

Speaker 2:

I mean there is a bit here pipeline-wise, but Well, and when you think of industrial in British Columbia, you know I think you're really what comes to mind in the construction sector is light industrial. You've got welders here.

Speaker 2:

There's a shop in Langley, in Abbford, chilliwack, burnaby, and that's great. What you don't have is the projects up until recently where you've got 5,000 to 10,000 people working on it for 5 to 8 years, I see, and that was Trans Mountain, that was Coastal Gas Link and that was LNG Canada. Right, those three projects have existed in Alberta for 80 years and that has not really existed in BC and probably won't for a while. We're hoping some more LNG plants will get built and when those plants get built a lot of Albertans come and build them.

Speaker 1:

I see Crazy, Okay. So yeah, that has a lot of political implications, political pressure. This is the environmental side of things. I mean if you're building the Oak Ridge Center here with all the new. I mean, yes, there's an environmental impact, but it's not for energy, it's not something that Greenpeace is targeting, although Trans Mountain would have been, etc.

Speaker 2:

But you're right, both on the environmental side, but both from a business and industry perspective. It is a layer of construction that doesn't exist full-time here Right and, whereas it does in Alberta. And then of course there's the oil and gas industry, which for the most part is driving that. Now BC does have the mining industry, which is huge. Those are shorter projects, not the same dollar value as these bigger ones, and are more on the operations side of things, whereas in Alberta the oil and gas industry of course is a permanent part. It's hard to understand what it means in dollar value, but it's only $70 billion a year just to keep the lights on, and so you've got automatic significant amount of business in the industry just day in the lights on, and so you've got automatic a significant amount of business in the industry just day in, day out. Then there's the projects like the. You know Alberta has multiple infrastructure projects like TransLink. You know there's the C-Train in Calgary and there's the Capital Line project. Those are mass transit projects.

Speaker 2:

Those are billions of dollars, just like BC has those. But, on top of that you've got the 10, 20 billion dollar industrial projects that are happening on a regular basis. So what that does in the industry that creates a new segment to construction. Now, just slightly over a decade, seeing those different sectors and how they relate to one another, how the workers move between how the financing occurs. And then there's the policy side of it. Large contractors have different policy requirements and needs than smaller contractors.

Speaker 1:

Yes, for sure.

Speaker 2:

Industrial contractors are the biggest in the country. Interesting, yes, for sure. Industrial contractors are the biggest in the country Interesting.

Speaker 1:

So do you see elements on the oil and gas side making its way down to the construction side in many ways, or are you seeing that just completely siloed off?

Speaker 2:

Well, so that's yeah. So that was kind of what I was hinting at. There is that, because of the oil and gas industry, you have construction companies that do exclusive construction in the oil and gas sector, exactly yeah, they're not building hospitals, homes, that's all they do and that's all they've done for 50 years and that's all they'll do for the next 50 years. They will never be building anything else, whereas the oil and gas projects in BC are one time, five to eight years, and then they're done and then they leave and they might not do work here. Hopefully, fingers crossed, we will get some more, but even those will be short term. The maintenance on those projects is not like in Alberta, it's called maintenance construction. Some of our board members brought Canada that's all they do and scaffolding on major projects, and they'll have upwards of 2,000 workers all year long every year just doing maintenance on industrial projects. That doesn't exist in British Columbia.

Speaker 1:

No, it doesn't. I mean, you have your city projects. You also have the new subway that's going underneath. These are the big projects, but that's about it. There's not really much. Everything else is like private enterprise.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, and that is private too. But you're right, there's a difference between private real estate and private, and I will not pretend to be an expert on the residential real estate development, but their investors, for the most part, are local. The industrial projects are international investors Exactly Money from New York and London.

Speaker 2:

And from big funds, and so that's where ESG and all this talk about that it doesn't. You know? I don't know to what extent it affects lower mainland, but it's not front and center. It is front and center in the single biggest issue in Alberta construction sector. And so this is a major difference where those big oil and gas issues that we hear about, well, that affects the construction sector in Alberta significantly.

Speaker 1:

So that's interesting, like some intel that Chris was giving me on his first interview. He was here a couple of guests before you and he was saying that the ICBA advocates for the contractors. Are you doing that as well for your membership base?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And how can you do that if some of the large funds, their international funds, are mandating, let's just say ESG, for instance how do you even get in there? How do you even get in the conversation? Can you have it? Or is it just like a non-starter?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think one of the things I really enjoyed when I was offered the position at ICBA is ICBA, for years, has been advocating for a better business climate for everyone. Icba believes in developing the wealth for all Canadians. Part of that is developing our natural resources in a responsible manner, and so ICBA was one of the very few, if not the only, business association in British Columbia advocating for the Trans Mountain Pipeline, for instance, let alone Site C, let alone LNG Canada. These are projects that will build wealth for all Canadians good paying, long-term jobs, and even when those jobs are done, the oil that goes to the line taxpayers will benefit from it. If the world's going to need oil, it might as well be Canadian oil. It just happens to come from Alberta. But every Canadian benefits from that and I think more and more Canadians are getting it. They're like whoa, we're taxing our golden goose into the ground and everything's costing more. How important, I mean.

Speaker 2:

I still believe I'm speaking on behalf of the average Canadian. I believe in being responsible for the environment, but I don't want to become impoverished because of that. How can I keep my standard of living high and be responsible to the environment? And people have been suddenly going. Oh, wait a minute here. If people are going to consume oil around the world anyway, it might as well be Canadian oil that's produced responsibly, taxed highly, provides education and health care and great resources that benefit everybody, not to mention the great paying jobs. Wait a minute here. Why are we against this? I think the tide is turning. People still want to be responsible, and good for them, but they're not as against oil and gas. They realize that there's a huge economic benefit there. So how do I get in there? I tell that story, but I'm not in the oil and gas industry. And if you're in the oil and gas industry and saying that people go well, that's just because you're benefiting from it. I'm going wait a minute here. We're not in the oil and gas industry, we're construction and we support this because our members get work from the oil and gas sector, just like the caterers do. Frankly, just how teachers.

Speaker 2:

Another question I raise to a lot of people is Alberta teachers incredible teachers? So are BC teachers. In fact, bc teachers have an NDP government. Why would they make 20% less than Alberta teachers? I got one answer. There's only one answer why. It's not that Alberta teachers are better, they're fantastic. Bc teachers are fantastic, there's only one reason Because we have oil and gas and we're going to pay our teachers more, because that's a factor of the economy. In fact, that oil and gas probably raises Canadian wages by somewhere between 2% and 8%. That's 2%, and 8% of our GDP is oil and gas. So when we talk about needing to raise our standard of living in Canada, what that really means is natural resources, and 60% to 70% of our natural resources are oil and gas.

Speaker 1:

So your membership base? How much of it is oil and gas versus just commercial construction, residential construction et cetera? What is that intersection like?

Speaker 2:

In Alberta we're at 250 members and clients, and of those I would say, less than 10% work directly for oil and gas companies.

Speaker 1:

Oh, less than 10% yeah.

Speaker 2:

Now they are large companies, whereas our smaller companies do residential or trades contractors. They're painters, they're paving companies, infrastructure companies, so we do the full spectrum, and that is something that we think a lot about is what are the common cause that they all have together? General contractors and trade contractors sometimes have different interests and we value both. Both of them need they both value each other. There's sometimes a tension between them, but I think everybody generally knows that we're all part of the same community and that's why we focus on these big economic issues, because that's something we can all agree on. We need better tax regimes. We need fewer regulations and policies. Those things drag us all down. Let's arise the tide, because that will float all the boats Right.

Speaker 1:

So there's been a new government, basically in Alberta with Danielle Smith, and she's pretty outspoken, you've probably seen. Is the general sentiment around the construction industry. Are they sort of cheerleading that on or are they like, ooh, this is risky, what's the general? I mean, you represent a lot of these people.

Speaker 2:

What's the sentiment?

Speaker 2:

I think for the most part, especially after having four years of Rachel Notley in the NDP, which, to be fair, if you compare them against NDP governments, they were great, but it's still not the same as having an overtly free market-based party Right, and I think most people did have some concerns about Danielle, and she has allayed almost all of our concerns, yeah, and I think everybody is very happy with her.

Speaker 2:

I haven't seen a poll recently, but my guess would be that her approval ratings would be fairly high and the construction sector in general is very happy. Now there are some sectors of the construction industry that work directly for the government Okay, and I think, especially like the road builders and those guys, they have non-stop problems with government as an owner because they're not a great owner to work for, and so you know we have a great relationship in British Columbia with the BC Road Builders. I know the Alberta Road Builders fairly well because there's a new association out there, so building it from an association standpoint. But we stand up for them. Like, what they want is long-term, stable funding from the government.

Speaker 2:

Well, the government's just like. Well, you know, it's a year out before the election, we're going to dump a whole bunch of projects out there really quickly and expect them to be built on time and on budget, and that's just not going to happen.

Speaker 1:

Right, okay, that makes sense.

Speaker 2:

You know, governments are notorious for underestimating the cost of events and not managing of projects and not managing that.

Speaker 1:

well, and so we're talking with the government and with our contractors of how can we help them not look so bad, and part of it is changing the way they do their procurement. So when, also when I was talking to Chris, he was talking about the apprenticeship program. So have you implemented that in Alberta as well?

Speaker 2:

Well, very interesting. So historically in British Columbia, associations like ICBA could sponsor apprentices yeah, and of course, as Chris mentioned, icba could sponsor apprentices yeah, and of course, as Chris mentioned, icba is the number one sponsor of apprentices in BC. Well, in Alberta that only changed just over a year ago, oh, okay, so prior to that, the only group who can sponsor apprentices is the were companies. So now unions and associations are allowed to, and nobody has experience in Alberta doing that. So this is a selling point, a value that we provide to our members and that we're advertising saying, if you need help sponsoring apprentices, we have years of experience doing this successfully, and so that's a sales pitch. Now, having been a year in, we're just getting started. We don't have a lot of apprentices sponsoring so far. Right, but it's certainly something that we're advertising Interesting.

Speaker 1:

So what do you think are the things that in construction, from a I can talk to you about this, because you're kind of one of these people who is like a I always call like a cerebral thinker You're able to sort of think on that plane where we can throw a bunch of stuff out there and you can sort of knit it together. What do you think are the main cultural problems we have in construction right now that you think you know, if we fix this we'd have better input, we'd have more young people being interested, etc. Like what are some of those things? Uh, that you see, yeah, or complaints from members, or or suggestions, etc well, I think one of the dangers is making construction too homogenous.

Speaker 2:

Like they're like, it is a very diverse and competitive environment, so when you look from one company to this company, they're going to manage things very differently, and there's a reason they do that. That's their competitive advantage. Um, so I think that's first of all, to note that some companies are going to really lean into progressive notions and others aren't, and that I think should be allowed. I don't think we should force the whole construction industry to be modeled after the same culture. We should allow and promote different cultures and different models and not penalize one over the other. I think secondly is we do have a movement in culture outside of construction that is raising children so that they're not predisposed to be interested in construction.

Speaker 2:

Construction is hard work. I think it's incredibly rewarding and the people I know have incredibly great careers in construction. That opportunity has not been told. I think the construction industry in general have not been experts in communication and telling their own story, and that's where associations like us are trying to help the construction industry in general tell that story better to a broader audience and in ways that the youth of today will hear, and I think we have a unique opportunity right now, especially with housing affordability and standard of living, saying well, you want to be able to afford a good life, you need a job that pays you well, well, construction's well above average and has careers that can be incredibly lucrative and meaningful. You're building stuff that you can see, that serves everybody, that is meaningful, as opposed to pushing paper on a desk where you're not sure if anything you do actually matters. This stuff matters, at least in a very physical way, and the physical world matters. So those are fun things to talk about and to advocate. Some companies lean into that more than others, I think.

Speaker 1:

Another issue that everyone's talking about is productivity, and I think Aren't we like super lowest, like Canada's like really low in terms of productivity?

Speaker 2:

Well, I was just going to say that.

Speaker 2:

Compared to the United States terms of productivity well, I was just going to say that compared to united states, well, no. So productivity in construction in in in around the world is low. So then the question is, why is that? And and I think we're butting up against some almost hard rules of nature like construction, is manual labor Right? It's hard work. You are hammering nails. There hasn't been a new way of hammering a nail into a piece of wood for 100, 200, 300 years, except for the nail gun Good point.

Speaker 1:

The nail gun is pretty good, I gotta say.

Speaker 2:

I bet you I would love to see the research on pre-nail gun productivity before, after, and I bet you it jumped up. Where is the next wave of technology to help that all?

Speaker 1:

go.

Speaker 2:

Right, and I think the construction industry is doing everything they can. I think everyone in this room about 1,200 people here today every single one of them wants a label, and if there was something there to do, they would do it. So when we talk about productivity, sometimes it's forced on the construction industry and we're not looking at the regulations that govern that, and you and I have talked about this before. There's a whole bunch of arcane 60 to 100-year-old laws in the books, especially in Alberta, which is a very different labor situation than BC. In Alberta there are 19 compulsory trades. Alberta, there are 19 compulsory trades.

Speaker 2:

The NDP and the British Columbia are just starting to introduce compulsory trades, which haven't existed here, I think, since 1984 or 86 or something like that.

Speaker 2:

So BC has done very well without compulsory trades, whereas Alberta's never gotten rid of them, and those compulsory trades have a whole bunch of nitpicky rules in them that cause headaches for everybody, and most of the people have just decided we're going to work around it and it's like walking around with a sliver in your foot and they're growing calluses over them and they're just used to walking on the side of their foot and their back's out of joint and their neck's hurting, they're going.

Speaker 2:

This is just normal, this is just life, and we're like, wait a minute, there's another way of doing this. We could move the sliver in your foot and then we've got to straighten the bag out and do some work in your neck so that we can start, and that would be more productive. Sometimes those are government regulations too, and of course then productivity took a huge pain because of COVID and the supply chain and all of those kind of things too, which are much longer, harder problems to solve. But I think the regulatory one is the one I focus on, and those would increase productivity and my construction significantly.

Speaker 1:

So when you see the frustration that a lot of people have in construction, I find that that is even a project manager, for instance. They're dealing with cultural issues, personality issues. Often, you know, it's very adversarial because you've got, you're trying to move humans and trying to. Sometimes a human doesn't want to be moved because they've got their own forces at play. So what do you think of the, the? It seems like we talk about this sort of vibe of construction a lot in terms of is it masculine, is it, etc. Do you think this is because it's somewhat adversarial and it kind of has to be Just the way it's set up Like? Can I just give you an example?

Speaker 1:

Just so I can give you a caveat here I'm not advocating that anyone needs to be aggressive.

Speaker 1:

But I think what I'm just trying to underscore here is that all teams are trying to get to the same goal at the end of the day. However, if you have one team that's not quite pulling their weight because of some decision, let's say that you were going to hire XYZ Trade to do the project but they couldn't do it because of some material delay or some problem and some other company happened to have that material. I know this is hypothetical, so let's say you have to go with this other company and then you see all the other trades that from the project management Gantt chart are going to intersect with that trade.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And they all know oh, no, not that company.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But they had to take that company because, so that right there creates this adversarial thing where, yes, we all want to try and get to the same end point, which is the project finished, hopefully on budget, hopefully on the right completion date, but yet we all have this thorn that we know we got to get around, yeah, so do you think that there's ever a time when that adversary is never going to exist? It's always going to be there, am I wrong?

Speaker 2:

Oh, it's always going to be there, but it is a spectrum, right, it's to greater and lesser degrees. I think the companies that are excelling and are leading the industry have figured out how to be as collaborative as possible.

Speaker 1:

Right, okay.

Speaker 2:

And that's what leadership is. One of the key things of leadership is figuring out how to get those thorny players to work cooperatively, to find common ground and to work together. And you know what, if there is only one company and they are the bottleneck that's the free market Somebody else will start a new one because they recognize they'll get a lot of work because nobody wants to work at that company, and that is the free market needs to be allowed to figure that out. What I have heard. Even just last week I was sitting down with some of our members and talking to them about their challenges and I mentioned an issue that's related to this, like are you having problems with equipment or supplies? And they said yes. But you know what's really interesting? Over the last five years, since COVID started, they have found ways to work together with their competitors and says you scratch my back, I scratch my back.

Speaker 1:

So there is a community sense.

Speaker 2:

I think a lot of the construction industry many of them have worked together before and then gone their different ways, and then you come back full circle and working together again. I think enough of them know that it's not worth burning bridges. You've got to figure out how to work, because you're probably going to end up working with this guy and some other person in another capacity with something else down the road. So it's best to make sure that the relational wheels are well greased and you keep that going and keep good will going. I'm sure you're right, adversarial relationships will never completely disappear. But I think more than ever, the construction industry is learning how to work together and figuring out how to make it a win-win for everybody involved.

Speaker 1:

There is that I always think about the adversary side of things when I see the end of a hockey game, when the teams go and they kind of pass each other and shake each other's hands.

Speaker 2:

Right, yes.

Speaker 1:

Because they all understand that they might all be on the same team one day.

Speaker 2:

Well, I'll tell you, like everybody knows, that construction is a very litigious industry as well. There's often lawsuits. That's just a normal part of business. So sometimes, like if you took hockey and took the rules of hockey and put it on the street, a lot of people would be going to jail. You can't just body check somebody, but in hockey that's normal. So if your expectation that that's just part of the game, it's not adversarial, it's actually wow, I really respect you. That was a good body check and it could be that litigation sometimes is just a part of the process. You just go hey, that's just what we expect. If you and I got involved in a lawsuit, we'd probably not like each other as much. But in construction they can be working together on one project and at the same time be in a legal battle on another project the same two companies.

Speaker 1:

That's a very good point.

Speaker 2:

So this happens all the time and it's not personal, it's business. And sometimes it's just hey, when I read the contract, I read it this way and they're going, yeah, but we read it this way, Okay, let's let the judge decide what was the case. It's not personal. We just got to figure this out and we'll make our argument in court that we were right. We'll make your argument. Then we'll go our separate ways and we'll keep doing work together.

Speaker 1:

So that situation there. It's funny, because if I were to just have a blanket statement for how somebody is, I would probably say that that's like a don't be a whiner kind of thing. It's like construction is not a bunch of whiners. A lot of other industries are whiners. So is it the fact that this is just a tougher? When I say tougher, I just mean mentally tough.

Speaker 2:

As for another episode, it's more of a thank you for listening.

Speaker 1:

Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube.

Speaker 2:

You can also sign up for our podcast going on at sitemaxsystemscom.

Speaker 1:

It just has to keep going.

Speaker 2:

Go to everything you need to know about site. Visit podcasts and sitemax.

Speaker 1:

The job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and the world. Sitemax is also the engine that powers this podcast. All right, let's get back to building.

Speaker 2:

Every project will end. Yeah, and it's well. You can call that temporary as well, and let's call that temporary. Transitory is workers move all the time, so their project ends and then they got to move somewhere else and they're moving between companies. The same worker will work for a few three, four different companies.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, that's that hockey shake as the team changes.

Speaker 2:

So they're moving all over, and so that creates a particular mindset and attitude. Not only that, it's construction, you're getting stuff done. I'm going to use a different word there that's more construction related, but for respect for your audience, I think I know what word I mean. We get stuff done, yeah, unlike many other industries that are very paper pushing and ethereal, especially like social media and all those service sector industries incredibly valuable, very needed. But at the end of the day, you can't physically point to something and say something and let me dig that you help somebody Very important Whereas construction is very concrete.

Speaker 2:

Speaking of an important part of the construction industry, more concrete is essential, but the physicality of it, I think, gets to the point that you were making there. It matters, it shapes the identity of construction people, it shapes the people who work in the industry and those other factors that transitory, temporary and mobile nature of construction. You're moving around, things start, they end and you've got a timeline, you've got to get it done, and I think those kind of factors shape the mentality of the industry of let's just do it, let's put personality aside, let's put emotions aside and let's just figure out how to get this done.

Speaker 1:

So, as you're, saying all this, I'm just an idea guy. I can't sort of get away from it, you know, when I see that the people in construction are all building something, everything that they are contributing to is yes, everyone gets paid, but they are contributing to progress that they're actually not getting something from.

Speaker 2:

Oh, so true. So this is a problem I have with BC's Community Benefits Agreement. In my previous job before this, I was doing government relations across Western Canada and I spent most of my time in BC together with ICBA, fighting community benefits agreements, because the assumption in community benefits agreements….

Speaker 1:

So take us through that, because I'm not totally familiar with it. Just give me the high level.

Speaker 2:

NDP government gets into power and says okay, the provincial government spends whatever. They spend $20, $30, $40 billion a year on infrastructure projects. We need to make sure that the people in the communities where those projects are being built they benefit from these projects.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I see.

Speaker 2:

And I'm like that's a faulty assumption. A bridge benefits the people in the fact of being a bridge. A school year benefits the people in the community. Being a school, you don't need to add benefits onto it. It already is a benefit in and of itself.

Speaker 2:

Roads, houses, hospitals, schools they're all benefits in and of themselves. But the government says, no, not good enough, we need to make sure that excluded groups and local groups get special benefit on this, and we're like okay, but when you do that, you raise the cost of the project and it means taxpayers will be paying more. They said no, no, no, there's going to be a way to do this that does it. So what they did is they started with a few pet projects, the first one, I believe the first one was the, not Portman, but the one that goes from West Windsor to Surrey.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, the Greensboro Bridge.

Speaker 2:

No, no oh the oh. We've drawn a blank here, showing our Ignat Soria to the BC listeners Golden Ears Bridge. Well, the new bridge.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I don't know why I'm thinking that From Surrey to New Westminster. Sorry, all of our listeners.

Speaker 1:

Patella.

Speaker 2:

Bridge Patella thank you Okay great.

Speaker 2:

So the Patella Bridge is a CBA project. It's already years behind and way over budget, as everyone predicted. Why? Because they gave that project. So they say community benefits, and this is a classic word if you're used to American politics. They had a way where Ronald Reagan, for instance, was shutting down a senior's home but where would he shut it down? He would find another senior's home that just got built and announce it while he was snipping the ribbon. So the visual was different than what it actually was. Community benefits is the clipping of the ribbon. It says community benefits but it's not actually what it is when you look at the details. They created another organization called the BC Infrastructure Benefits.

Speaker 2:

This is a whole new between $5 and $20 million a year organization, a new government department that has government staff and government pensions to manage the workforce of the projects and they force all of the workers to be members of the building trades. And there's a whole bunch of other stuff that I won't get into for saving us time. But it makes it. If you're operating your business as a non-union contractor, you're no longer operating it. If you do work on that project, you have to work with those conditions and terms set up by the unions and most companies are set up in a way. They've figured out the unique way of doing business, of organizing their workforce in a unique way, but unionization would not allow that.

Speaker 2:

There's a whole bunch of smaller terms I could throw out there that we won't get into here, but let's just say that force companies to do work in a particular way that doesn't suit them. Well, that's less efficient, less productive and that means costs more. Not only that, a lot of companies just don't want the headache so they won't bid. So now you've maybe got one, maybe two at most companies bidding on the project, and you know, when there's fewer bidders on a project the costs of the projects go up. So that is community benefits agreements, and everybody should hear the quotes, the scare quotes, on either side of those words, because it's not really community benefits. It's something called a project labor agreement, which is what NDP governments have used for years to give exclusive access to public sector jobs to 15% of the industry, the unionized contractors.

Speaker 1:

So wouldn't it make more sense for there to be a national or provincial program that you have, like a construction card, the fact that, if you're in construction at all, that you're getting some kind of uptick for the benefit that you're providing from the project that you've built? So, essentially because, yes, everyone gets paid, yeah, but this, this thing that's left, that everyone's supposed to be passionate about, everyone's supposed to love what they're doing, everyone's supposed to get up, even when it's hailing to go through all of this brain damage, to just simply just deliver something and they go. Well, I guess that's just your job. Well, not really.

Speaker 2:

Well, I guess that's one way of talking about it. I hope the companies that employ these amazing workers.

Speaker 1:

But I think there needs to be more than that, let me just clarify it a little more that employ these amazing workers, but I think there needs to be more than that. Sorry, I'm not. Let me just clarify it a little more. I guess what I when I get lost on this a little bit is that we need construction people to move into construction, we need the younger generation to move into it, and in an economy where no one or I should say no one, but very few kids are valuing this, they're just seeing it as like oh yeah, I guess if everything goes wrong, I'll go in construction. I mean, that's what their parents tell them, that's right. You know which is stupid?

Speaker 1:

So, I guess what I'm saying is that there isn't an attachment of identity to being in construction.

Speaker 2:

That is more ubiquitous, so I guess if there was.

Speaker 1:

I'll give you an example If you work, if in construction, if you were working on a specific project, you would get a better rate from CMHC on a mortgage if you helped build it. I see what you're saying, I see what you're saying.

Speaker 2:

I see what I'm saying.

Speaker 1:

There needs to be some other things where there are, because we're in an identity economy and if one kid says to another kid well, how'd you get that? Well, because I'm in construction.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's starting to happen, though I think it can happen. I'm hesitant to use regulations to incentivize stuff like that. Maybe that's possible and I don't want to disregard it. My hope is that and this has happened more and more we can use the existing story channels to share what the opportunity is in construction. Construction is not for everybody, just like working behind a desk is not for everybody, just like the medical being a nurse is not for everybody, just like the medical being a nurse is not for everybody, just like being a teacher is not for everybody. They all have unique things and we need to really have the interests of the kid at heart.

Speaker 2:

And part of the assumption is that more kids would get into construction if they were allowed to actually pursue something that was in their best interest. That's the assumption. I believe that's true. I have no way of telling if it is. I do believe that more kids should be active. Too many now are just stuck on their phones and in the basement playing video games, and that's probably, for most of them, not good for them, and that getting out and being active would be good for them.

Speaker 2:

Now, the stories of that are certainly to be told. I just recently stumbled across a woman who works in, I think, invermere it could be one of the adjacent communities there. I think there's a project there that she's working on and she just videos herself working on projects and, yes, she happens to be attractive and she probably has 20,000 followers because of that. But this is a respectful, professional electrician and she is top of her game and she's showing everybody this is a great industry to be in and those are the kind of stories that the construction industry needs to get behind to promote and I think we're doing a much better job of that. But she's on TikTok, right, right, how many construction associations are on TikTok? How many construction companies are? And that's where we need to go and tell our stories.

Speaker 2:

I think Mike Holmes does his best telling the story of construction and why it's a valuable career, a meaningful career that can also be lucrative. And I think, as standard of living becomes a bigger issue and standard of living, for the first time in a long time, are going down significantly, people are going what are the other options out there? Maybe there's a whole world that I didn't know that I need to open my eyes to. So I think we have a unique opportunity at the construction, as well positioned to go in there, and we just need to do it, just like we build projects. That's cool.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I definitely agree on the inspiration side of things. We've got to show people the path.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

The path to you could be this person one day. I think these days the youth values the wrong things and you can show them somebody who is super successful or whatever, and they'd still say I don't want to be that.

Speaker 2:

Well, you talked about culture. You talked about culture and the internet influencer. Culture is something that annoys a lot of people. It's incredibly alluring. Just take pictures of myself and I get to travel around the world and I'm super rich, but when it doesn't exist, it's literally probably one in 10 million amateur influencers actually make any money.

Speaker 2:

And the others are all acting, yeah, and they are probably looking like they're one in a hundred million. They're probably model-looking and so genetically most of us aren't predisposed to having that life in the first place, and I wonder how sustainable it is. But the problem is that is what they aspire to Travel the world and make a lot of money doing it. That's the influencer lifestyle and it's completely unrealistic, just like almost everything on social media. It's an unrealistic, fake image of reality and we need people to understand that. It's okay to be entertained by it, but don't assume that that's the life you can live. The stories we have of construction, of people who worked hard and now they have an amazing living the stories we have of construction are people who worked hard and now they have an amazing living. I know 40-year-old guys who are vice presidents of large construction companies who started off as two-year certificate craft workers that's their education and now they're running companies with 1,000, 1,500, 2,000 workers and, yes, they have multiple holiday homes and live a pretty good life, but they work darn hard.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's pretty cool. All right, mike.

Speaker 2:

It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 1:

It is. I think we got way more to talk about.

Speaker 2:

This is way too short for us. We're going to do this again.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we are. Yeah, that's cool, okay. Well, thank you very much. Congratulations on everything with the show.