the Site Visit
Transforming Real Estate with Innovative Tech with Geoff Krahn, Founder & CEO of Reveloper
This episode promises to unlock the secrets behind Reveloper, a revolutionary platform designed to rethink, reshape, and revolutionize real estate development. We kick off with some nostalgic banter about our university days, setting the stage for a fascinating conversation about the transformative potential of technology in real estate.
Our returning guest, Geoff Krahn, shares the latest on his innovative venture, Reveloper. This groundbreaking platform equips small landowners, especially those in the industrial sector, with tools traditionally reserved for big developers. By simplifying the entire development process—from feasibility studies to construction planning—Reveloper empowers landowners to make informed decisions and maximize their investments. Jeff explains how even those with little to no real estate background can compete with larger players, revolutionizing the landscape of property development.
We chat about the future of AI and how it could transform Revelloper into a self-serve SaaS offering, reducing the need for hands-on project management. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of real estate development, technology, and innovative business solutions.
PODCAST INFO:
the Site Visit Website: https://www.sitemaxsystems.com/podcast
the Site Visit on Buzzsprout: https://thesitevisit.buzzsprout.com/269424
the Site Visit on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-site-visit/id1456494446
the Site Visit on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5cp4qJE5ExZmO3EwldN1HH
FOLLOW ALONG:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thesitevisit
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesitevisit
This episode promises to unlock the secrets behind Reveloper, a revolutionary platform designed to rethink, reshape, and revolutionize real estate development. We kick off with some nostalgic banter about our university days, setting the stage for a fascinating conversation about the transformative potential of technology in real estate.
Our returning guest, Geoff Krahn, shares the latest on his innovative venture, Reveloper. This groundbreaking platform equips small landowners, especially those in the industrial sector, with tools traditionally reserved for big developers. By simplifying the entire development process—from feasibility studies to construction planning—Reveloper empowers landowners to make informed decisions and maximize their investments. Jeff explains how even those with little to no real estate background can compete with larger players, revolutionizing the landscape of property development.
We chat about the future of AI and how it could transform Revelloper into a self-serve SaaS offering, reducing the need for hands-on project management. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of real estate development, technology, and innovative business solutions.
PODCAST INFO:
the Site Visit Website: https://www.sitemaxsystems.com/podcast
the Site Visit on Buzzsprout: https://thesitevisit.buzzsprout.com/269424
the Site Visit on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-site-visit/id1456494446
the Site Visit on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5cp4qJE5ExZmO3EwldN1HH
FOLLOW ALONG:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thesitevisit
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesitevisit
So Abbotsford, it's quite a long distance from here.
Speaker 2:It's not that bad An hour.
Speaker 1:I think I've said this before in the podcast. I always find that Abbotsford, I always think it's just past Langley, but then you get past Langley, it's Langley again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's true. When I was at UBC doing my degree, everyone would say I would drive back on the weekends and they would say, like you're going back for, like you're going to, like, I'm like it's only an hour and like it's like it's way out in the sticks, you're out in the boonies, I'm like it's not that far. Yeah.
Speaker 1:We have to go to my daughter's thing at Tradex every year right, which is right near the airport. Yeah, that's the yeah. That's kind of cool, yeah. So here we are in the spring in lower mainland Starting to feel good.
Speaker 2:It is Sun's out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that must have better drive than it was beautiful Sun we've opened.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Doing well with hockey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:You a hockey fan.
Speaker 2:I have three young kids so I don't get to watch much sports other than three young kids, so I don't get to watch much sports other than Do they like talking.
Speaker 1:They don't. They're too young, oh, they're too young. No sticks yet. No sticks in the face.
Speaker 2:Just just fighting Nice.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the site. Visit podcast leadership and perspective from construction with your host, james Baldwin. Business as usual, as it has been for so long now that it goes back to what we were talking about before and hitting the reset button. You know you read all the books, you read the email, you read Scaling Up, you read Good to Great. You know I could go on. We've got to a place where we found the secret serum. We found the secret potion. We can get the workers in. We know where to get them.
Speaker 1:Once I was on a job site for a while, and actually we had a semester concrete and I ordered a Korean-Finnish patio out front of the site show. Yesterday I was down in Dallas and a guy just hit me up on LinkedIn out of the blue and said he was driving from Oklahoma to Dallas to meet with me because he heard the Favourite Connect platform on your guys' podcast.
Speaker 2:Home it, crush it, get down to it.
Speaker 1:All right, jeff, nice to see you again, yeah good to see you again too.
Speaker 2:Episode 40.
Speaker 1:You were on before.
Speaker 2:That seems like an eternity ago.
Speaker 1:It is 80 episodes ago. Wow yeah, wow yeah.
Speaker 2:My voice is it is 80 episodes ago, wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, yeah. My voice is definitely deeper from 80 episodes, and mine was during COVID. So and I think we were talking about your family's company, the Kron Group.
Speaker 2:then Yep Correct.
Speaker 1:Yep, and now you're are you working on this new product, which is called Revelloper?
Speaker 2:Yep, which is a play on the word of developer and real estate.
Speaker 1:I've got a question for you Do you pronounce it realtor or realtor Realtor, nice work. Nice, is it Chipotle or Chipolte Chipotle, nice work. I'm getting all these right, hopefully, hopefully, my wife loves it, so I have to Nice work.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm getting all these right. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully. My wife loves it, so I have to get that one right. I know, I know, I know. Okay, so let's just talk about Revelloper for a minute. I love the name, by the way, oh thank you, it's really cool.
Speaker 2:There's no other Revellopers around Not that I'm name.
Speaker 1:So I went through the website and maybe just for everybody, you can just sort of like I see you in an elevator and I say, hey, what do you do? And you say reveloper. And I go, what's that? Give me the. I've got 10 floors until it's the ground, the classic elevator pitch, but I got 10 floors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so essentially it's a real estate development service and platform where we can just allow any property owner to develop their property simply and successfully from start to finish.
Speaker 2:So we utilize our own in-house technology and just to give the same advantages that, say, a large developer would have, or more experienced ones, just to people who don't have that one, just to people who don't have that and um and and just and want to, maybe don't want to sell their property, but just want to maximize the potential and or and or want to get into it somehow and just give them that opportunity to kind of compete and on the same playing level as as a larger, as a larger developer, and just right, because it's it's very difficult, right, I've done it for a long time and I've been in the industry for a long time.
Speaker 2:I just just realized I was like, if it's hard for me, like engineering background and all that sort of stuff, I couldn't imagine how hard it would be for just a person who's like, right, so that's why, and just to kind of unlock the potential of others, because in the lower mainland and just overall, we're land shortages, so right, so there's just and people don't want to sell, right, maybe a family-owned business or something, but they're getting old. Anyways, there's a ton of different reasons, but just to kind of give that, to make it simple and just help anybody do it right, and just make it as just simple. That's all I want to do, and more democratize things.
Speaker 1:Cool, okay, can you give me like a use case? So what would the ideal thing?
Speaker 2:be when you said you know someone has a rental property they don't know what to do with it. Or is it a piece of land with a building on it that they're renting that has redevelopment opportunity, like knock the existing structure down, rebuild something else and showing the feasibility of that? We focus on the industrial side because that's kind of that's our main focus at this point anyways. But so the ideal would be, say you have a property or you own something that maybe is underutilized and we can determine all that by right, because you don't even know right. Maybe you have a big yard space, maybe it has extra parking that you don't know about. That right? Or it could just be a property that's bare land, maybe it's truck parking or something I about that right, or it could just be a property that's bare land, maybe it's truck parking or something I see Right.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it can be cause we can add on, we can do a redevelopment from the start to finish, or we can do it from a bare land, from any one of those. You just have to look. It's just the first, it's looking to seeing what that is. Then we can we analyze all that and see very quickly and easily.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so then, um, this landowner comes to you guys and you have a platform to help them with visibility on the entire process of something that a large developer would have tools for that a small developer would not, and that's that value proposition there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because essentially, like I say to people when I say, like you were talking about realtors before, I could go out and sell my house or sell something. But you usually don't hire a realtor and there's a reason you do that, because they provide value and they provide something there. So that same sort of thing where it's just because someone owns a piece of property doesn't mean that they're a developer. They may have their better use of time, they just don't have the time commitment to do that right. Um, and I just want. So that's the kind of the value proposition where, okay, ads, we can make that, take it from a to b, make it more valuable for you and like it's. It's very simple and it's like it's like it's. You can be as little or as much involved. You won't have lots of involvement. You can have a lot if you want to be a hands-off and just kind of and watch and be able to check in and to know exactly what's going on, kind of like checking your investments you can do that as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah oscillation of different situations there are, would the end product be for them a plan of what they could do, and then they can go to a bank, and then they can decide whether they want to pull the trigger on this thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we'll do the fees. So there's kind of two parts. There's the feasibility, which which is which is kind of. That's kind of where this whole thing started was because at the Kron group I kind of worked. We'd get in we're an architectural firm through KPA architecture as well, so we'd get plans and guys would come in maybe own stuff and they didn't know what to do. So we'd draw a site plan, right, and then you take it to your realtor or kind of figure out what that was going to be, and then they would figure out the construction costs and then right kind of this whole process Like to a commercial real estate, yeah to a commercial realtor or someone.
Speaker 2:It didn't even happen, they were just. Maybe they didn't know a friend who was a realtor, or they did right, they wanted to figure out what the lease rates. We do it. It would cost tens of thousands of dollars because we did it, and then the end product could have been like, oh, it's not feasible, it is feasible, I don't know what to do. So we will kind of simplify that. Run that whole process through you. We can do that in like a couple of days.
Speaker 2:And we do that essentially just to give a kind of a report being like hey, this is the value, this is what you could do, this is the value, this is what you could do, this is the construct. All that feasibility is done and here's what the profit would be if you did it or if you held it, leased it, whatever it would be the situation. And then, yeah, that either can be utilized here. But then we take that a step further story and we'll run it through. We'll go out and liaison, we'll have it through from. We'll go out and liaison. We have the connections with if someone wanted to finance it and figure out how much cash you needed, if you needed any cash, right If it can be leveraged. We do all that and run it through from if we figure out, then we'll run it through the city, run it through the construction contractors, all that thing, and to get the realtors on board and do from start to finish, all the way to the completion of the project.
Speaker 1:Okay, so and you've run a number of these through this already and were they large projects, or were they? I mean, what's the kind of mean size?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there can be different size projects, from just a twinning of a warehouse right, there was on that, or something like that. Or we've done a ground up from multiple buildings in the 50,000 square foot range on that, or something like that. Or we've done a ground up from from there's multiple buildings, um, in the 50,000 square foot range on that, or or, uh, working on one in the 100,000 square foot, so it can be a range of like anything because, right it, yeah, it just honestly depends on on the kind of what, what the size of the property is, what you can do and what someone wants to do, right, so there's a huge range of different opportunities and different ways to go about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you first see a project comes across your you know, into someone? What's the application process? How does somebody? What do they just call you? Do they? What do they? I mean, how do they? If someone hears this and they've got an opportunity for you, how do you? How do they engage you? I mean, this is the software comes in after they're a customer client.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we can do it a different ways. We've done it where we've worked with different realtors to kind of Is the realtor?
Speaker 2:then, They'll, they'll, they'll cause then, because then they can source the property. Or maybe they have clients who are like, oh, I know this property in the commercial space and I know this guy doesn't know what he wants, he doesn't want to sell it, he doesn't want to buy it, but this is another opportunity, sorry, this is another avenue that he can now look into Because it's properties that may have been vacant or just underutilized, right. So there's that thing we've created. I'll get into that whole, creating all that software and that analytics to get all through that. So that's one avenue where people bring it in. Or if an owner just wants to come talk to us directly, we can do that as well.
Speaker 2:But we like working with realtors because they know the area, they know what people are, they know most of the property owners, right. Um, and then also we can then find, we can source these properties. So I can go through um entire cities and be like, okay, this property is underutilized, this property, um, right, find a list of top 100 properties and be like, okay, these are all of them here and this is all the potential that they could be doing on them with a click of the button, instead of that long process of, like I talked about before, going to an architect, going here and just going by one by one, which can take, which it's just, it's not repeatable, it can't be done on a large scale. Let's just say that, okay, it can't be done on a large scale. I'll just say that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's do this little exercise here, just so that we can sort of help the listeners knit their own concept together of what the offering is. Okay, yeah. So let's say that I have a okay two things. So first, you're saying that realtors like using you guys. Yeah, okay, when you say that they like using you, how do they start using you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we've talked to, we have relationships with a number of them, so they've just talked to us and we'll give them either. We'll, right here, give them a report saying like these are the properties right.
Speaker 1:I guess what I'm saying is what problem do they come to you with that you solve quickly and then you move forward over time. So they're going to call you for a reason. What? What's the outcome that they're looking for quickly?
Speaker 2:okay, yeah, so so they're they're saying, hey, I want to, I want to sell this, I want to get in front and talk to this property Like what can I do on it? What can be done on it, Like what's the potential?
Speaker 1:And then we can be like so they see the property, yeah, but they might not necessarily have that client yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Okay, so it can be used as a prospect, okay, kind of a Okay.
Speaker 1:So a realtor is an opportunistic. Realtor is like, okay, I've driven by this place or I've seen this or for whatever reason that it's come into their radar and they're like, okay, I'd like to get that client to you guys and then they're going to approach that prospect who has that property, with some kind of a plan of what the opportunity?
Speaker 2:is for the property.
Speaker 1:Because they want to sell it to someone else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they either want to sell it or like Because that would be the realtor's transaction.
Speaker 2:The realtor wants to, either maybe want yeah, their incentive is to get or they want to sell it. Or, like that would be the realtor's the realtor wants to. Either maybe what they want yeah, their their incentive is to get, or they want sale, or they want to lease it out yeah, exactly. So they can either say, well, they bring it to them and say, here, this is what someone can do. Like your property is a little underutilized, right, so they get in front of the out, they add value that way. Because imagine someone bringing you a um, like a plan, that would have caught right, we're taking you value.
Speaker 2:And so some people don't even know. And then they can either say, well, then the property owner can be then like, oh, that's interesting, okay, I didn't know my property was worth that much, I didn't know I could do that. Maybe I'm interested in doing that, right. So maybe now they get the listing of a fully developed property, which can be double what it is right now. Or maybe the guy's like, oh, I didn't know that either, but maybe I'm interested in selling. So there's two different avenues. You get the list like the full development, which would be a lot bigger, and then that adds a huge amount of value to both the owner and to the realtor as well.
Speaker 1:Cool, okay. So I would guess that there is in the early stages some kind of dovetailing between price per square foot built out for a certain kind of building and then zoning how much density you could have on that property, etc. How much property is left that you could put an extra building on? Maybe there's only one on there now. How much property is left that you could put an extra building on? Maybe there's only one on there now. Yeah, so with those different alterations that could be done, how do you provide the different classes of construction or development in terms of how? I guess what I'm saying is, you know, you can have some designers who are expensive, you can have materials that are expensive. You can have so many different I'm going to say oscillations again of different types of properties. So is this a baseline kind of opportunity, that is, report that's being provided at the end?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's a good question. So I kind of get what you're saying. You're asking like there's so much variables and like different.
Speaker 2:You're trying to figure it out. So that's exact. That's a good question. What we did is so I did a lot of the consulting work, so I got to realize very quickly there was a lot of. I knew what the costs were and so we got all the stats and all the data on all that.
Speaker 2:On the certain types of buildings and it varies by size, just like construction does you build something, there's economies of scale there as well. Same with construction, right? So we'll actually, when we do it, we actually the program's actually building a very model, which is the wall lengths, all that sort of stuff based off actual construction costs for that area. So we're like we're very confident with we're within 10% of what it's actually going to be in the different unit rates and we give a range too, right. So it's like we'll say it's actually going to be and then rate the different unit rates and we give a range too right. So it's like we'll say it's going to be within um right, so it right, it's it caught within that. So right, we're not. Because that's what got me frustrated as well as I. I saw how it was done, even like, just like the drawings and this, and it was just still like it was more just a guess on a lot of stuff doing drawings, though, right so no, we'll.
Speaker 2:We'll do a site plan with the. With that show you hitting the table here. We'll do a site plan with that show you hitting the table here. We'll do a site plan kind of that shows your property, what the building will look like like, the layouts and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, but no renderings or anything like that. I guess small little rendering yeah.
Speaker 1:Really, yeah, god, but that's so. I mean, how expensive is this to do? I mean, like a realtor is going to come in to you guys and is not going to want I know realtors, they don't want to spend anything, so did so do they come in and there and there's a. Is there some kind of a? Is there something that is affordable for the realtor to come in?
Speaker 2:Because they don't even have the.
Speaker 2:they don't have the deal yet yet, yeah, no, so that, so we'll do that. So, yeah, we do it. Essentially, we just, yeah, we'll do it for them, for they don't have to pay us, okay, actually, yeah, well, they're not paying us anything, right, because we're utilizing, we can do that so efficiently and just that, like we can do it, like just using our software and stuff, we can do it so efficiently and just do it. We're about getting those properties out there and getting it to as many people as possible, to getting that stuff out. That we don't right and we'll just and if it leads to something and it leads to something, that's how we'll get compensated, but if it doesn't, then well, that's the cost of doing business, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, yeah, so essentially they don't have to pay.
Speaker 2:That is a good point you bring up about not.
Speaker 1:Where does someone pay?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we'll make money. Say so now we're all about getting that project from start to finish right. So we want to get properties that are underutilized and just help people get them across the finish line right. So we'll make money on the actual getting a development and getting it completed and based off of that success of that project. Then that's how we'll make money. There'll be a percentage of the profit, or some people prefer to do it, they want to do it more as a conventional, like a construction on that side, like a cost plus. Again, I don't always agree with that one because it's not aligned right, because if costs go up, the fees just go up more.
Speaker 1:You want to manage a whole construction job.
Speaker 2:We don't manage the construction. We'll utilize the contractors. We're more acting as the owner's rep or owner's agent or development manager. We'll work with whichever contractor. It gets more work for contractors, do you? Guys get a cut, then If the project makes money, then we'll make some of the money.
Speaker 2:But what does project makes money mean? Oh, if the development like if when you sell the units or lease the units and then it's cashflow positive or it makes a net profit or development profit on that sale based above, then that's like a typical developer is going to make their profit at the end of the project. That's how we would say too we're partnering with the people in the projects. So I didn't want to be like, even though I'm a consultant by trade, I didn't want to be like okay, we're going to charge you $300 an hour Because it's like no one's making money until the project is sold or leased, no one's making any money and it's just outflows of money.
Speaker 1:So what is the time horizon of? I mean, that sounds like a long yeah. No, it is For you to see the typical Bucks come into the bank.
Speaker 2:The typical development project. It obviously depends, right, Because you got to go through development permit.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a five year thing.
Speaker 2:Three to years. Three to five. Yeah, yeah, sounds like a five-year thing. Three to years. Three to five yeah, you can.
Speaker 1:From realtor, going here From realtor here, going all the way through. Yeah, it takes a while To you making money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, we'll take a small. We have a small fee just along the way just to maybe cover some of our costs, and then we'll make money at the very end. Okay, so who's paying that? That would be based off of the construction costs or whatever it is right. It's like a point percentage of, and then that takes taken off of our final fee that we get paid if the project is successful.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay. So what are the markers of what is so? What if what is so? What if? Okay, so, but if somebody? Because there's a couple of different transactions here. First of all, there's the realtor coming to you saying I'd like to sell this property on behalf of this client. I don't have have yet because they've seen this property, yeah Right, so they're going to. They want to approach Mrs Smith who owns this piece of property. Yep, it's got a building on it. Might suck. Whatever. There's been some reason why they've figured that this is an opportunity. They look at this and they go okay, I want to go and approach Mrs Smith. Mrs Smith becomes says oh, okay, well, that's pretty cool. So you got this kind of mini plan for me. Wow, I didn't realize that I had this much value locked in a piece of land. That person then goes I want to sell it. So realtor's like okay, let's put it on the market, then it sells.
Speaker 2:Do you get anything there On that? Yeah, if we bring them the property, we've sourced it, we've done all that work. We'll just take a. We take a small percentage of their commission of the realtors commission because we've facilitated that, we've brought essentially brokered that brought them the information. That makes sense yeah.
Speaker 1:So then that?
Speaker 2:so then, if it leads to a sale, then that's, and if it leads to development, then we'll make money on the development side.
Speaker 1:Mrs Smith says wow, I didn't realize. Well, maybe you know, I do have some other money.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Or I could go to a bank or whatever it is. This could provide me and my family, our estate, whatever, yep, our portfolio, better income moving forward from. Maybe we can create a, you know, small multifamily 30 unit you know, five story, whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, something small, so they're able to do that. So then when you say that you guys make money or you have a revenue stream, when that's successful is that after they've marketed, after they sold it. Or let's say they make a rental building because zoning's like, hey, we don't have enough rentals here, we can fast track this development permit. If you make it rental, let's say they want to do that, is that then is the success. We rented all the units and then you get a piece of like that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, so on the rental, yeah, so there's like usually there's two avenues you can either sell it out, right Stratify.
Speaker 1:Stratify yeah.
Speaker 2:Stratify or sell. Yeah, let's see, and that hasn't been going too well in the commercial market right now just because of things. But so the strata market's not so, it's the leasing market. Right now, a lot of it is leasing, so none of this would be anything residential ever.
Speaker 1:Sorry, would any of this ever be residential? It commercial.
Speaker 2:Light industrial In order to do what we're doing in the technology side, and on that side it needs to be. We've stuck and we'll probably switch over, but it's just. There's a lot less variables in industrial space and commercial space than there is in residential Okay, right, residential is just a rat's nest.
Speaker 1:It is To do all that. It's just because there's way more variables. Do you want to pay 80 bucks for a faucet?
Speaker 2:or $700 for a faucet. Exactly, I got it Okay.
Speaker 1:All right, that makes sense. Yeah, and especially like the price per square foot, you can tell if it's warehousing, whether or not it's, like you know, warehousing or whatever it is. It's just way easier to price up.
Speaker 2:And yeah, you need them to do the construction costs and the soft costs and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:yeah, Jeez that took 20 minutes.
Speaker 2:Or maybe it wasn't, maybe I didn't listen.
Speaker 1:It's highly likely I didn't listen. Okay, so now we know. So Mrs Smith now has this commercial piece of property that has a warehouse on it. It's small, maybe it's got like something that's got a tractor sitting in it for years and they don't realize that they could have three or four different structures on this kind of size of land et cetera, and rent it out. Okay, this is making a lot more sense. So the transaction then On the rental side.
Speaker 2:No even Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, on the rental side, this is essentially what you're trying to get customers to do ideally, right? I mean the realtor coming to get customers to do ideally right. Yeah, I mean the realtor coming to you and going here I found this, mrs Smith, and Mrs Smith sells it and you get a commission of the realtor fee. It's not really what you're in this for, exactly. Yeah, because it's not going to be a lot it's not enough money, exactly, yeah, very small portion which is not worth your time, exactly, but it's just to show that we're in it together.
Speaker 2:So it's a very small portion of that, but our main thing is on the development side and helping on that side no-transcript.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a good point. Yeah, it's a very good point. So then either they sell it, then, okay, it also opens up. So then the new owner maybe they get their package, their due diligence package or whatever it is, and they have it. That's part of the package now. Well, package or whatever it is, and they have it now and that's part of the package now. Well, we've done this point. So they know, like they can either, okay, we can do it ourselves, which is, which is okay, you're fine, or they're like, or they can now come to us and then again be like oh, I didn't know. Like, we were bought this property based off of what you guys could do with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, can you guys carry then, right, so then it's eventually, that's the best of both you guys are pretty warm on that project, yeah, and, and then they can, and then they can come to us, and then on that side it also opens up. I think realtors also like it too, because it opens up the buyer list, right. So if you were selling that piece of property and you're, okay, it may be only a certain group of developers who are like, okay, I have the capacity to do it, but now it can be opened up to more, let's say, a passive investor or groups of people, or just like, oh, I'm a doctor or lawyer or whatever and I want to buy this people up. I don't have the time to do it, but it has this huge potential and I want to own it or lease it out later. Okay, well, developer can. Now, they'll run it all and I can just kind of check and follow along and check my investment. You of a passive instead of a targeted developer group as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's talk about the construction side of it saying is that's what this podcast is? Yeah, is it's all about that? So is it just in the basic estimates and the construction knowledge you have through Cam, who we both know?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He brings his expertise into the project For a project. I mean, like, is that a significant amount of time to be able to figure that out, To figure out the construction costs? Yeah, Because the software is. How much is the software doing that and how much is someone's brain doing it?
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so the software on the beginning does that full analysis to figure out what those construction costs would be. Which I'm saying, construction costs will include hard costs, soft costs, like city by city.
Speaker 1:So you, guys have modeled this stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've modeled it and then we get the data updated every couple right, because there's other ways. Like we're contracted, we just know, okay, I built my last building, it cost me $150 a square foot and then they'll use that as a blanket rate for new buildings. But like there's a huge variance between it could be 110 for a huge 300,000 square foot way, all the way up to $200 a square foot for small bay, 10,000 square. Right, there's that huge. But just to say 150, it leaves right. So we'll, we go down to that level. We'll say, well, know that variance, we'll build out that model based off the size of the buildings and all that sort of stuff, and then it's updated based off current rates, like continually, so that we know that we're pretty, we're very accurate on that construction side, so that then we can take it once we've got that point and we've got it all set, and then we'll take it to an actual and we're ready to bring in the general contractor.
Speaker 2:Do you guys do that part? No, we're more curating that process. We'll go out to whichever GC, commercial contractor or a contractor. That's good, because we're not. Our thing is not to be, we're not trying to what do you call it vertically integrate ourselves and make a huge general contract. There's guys out there that do it incredibly well and they're the right ourselves and make a huge general contract. There's guys out there that do it incredibly well. I know a number of them. You probably have them on here and they're just great at what they do. That's not what we're trying to do. A lot of them are SiteMax customers, exactly. They use a lot of software, ram.
Speaker 1:Orion Rose McClellan. Those are some of the top guys in all of BC Tight. There's lots of these guys.
Speaker 2:We're not trying to do that. Our thing is to bring guys to the table. I don't think we're really competing with a lot of different people because a larger developer is going to do what they're going to do the general contractors. We're not trying to do that. Essentially, we're trying to bring more work and consistent work, and it makes their job easier, I think, because then we kind of process and systematize that thing so that they don't have to. It's not as chaotic. We bring it on consistency and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:So it's just more like if you're working with a guy who hasn't done this before, they don't know why they're running around. We kind of bring a more consistent approach where you know what to expect and with our projects and that we know how to run through that whole thing. So yeah, so then, okay, so, going back to that, we do that model and then we'll take it to the contractors and say, okay, now what are your fees going to be? Or, sorry, what's your construction costs going to be? Based off of that and based off of that, and then we update our model Okay, here's our fixed fee, contract or cost plus whatever it is for that to say, okay, well, we were thin right. Our estimate was here.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's a little bit lower, so this is the owner's relationship that you guys get into there. Yeah, okay, cool, all right, let's just chat for a little bit of this platform, this software. So what is it built in?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's a good question. It's built in a number of different areas. On the analytics side, we operate under GIS data. It's built on what are? You talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like. What platform is it on? Oh, it's built off of Programming language. What platform is it on? It's built off of. How is it built?
Speaker 2:It's built off of Smartsheet on one. Have you heard of Smartsheet? I have. Yeah, it's built off some of that just on the back end to organize some of our data.
Speaker 1:Is it a Smartsheet?
Speaker 2:project. No, it's not. So it's built off the back end with using the data and then it's built in. Yeah, the back end's running on Smartsheet. Yeah, the front end is. I would have to talk to some of our guys. I don't know what the full front end is built off of. Okay, we'll cut this part out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, no problem.
Speaker 1:Sorry full front end is built off of. Okay, we'll cut this part out. Yeah, okay, no problem. So this software you, what was like? What made you go? Okay, I think I can build this, and I mean it's to have something that works and continues to work. You have to keep working on it. It's not something that you can just set it and forget it and once the bread's gone in and it's toasted, it's just good forever. You have to do updates. You've got to make sure this. Is there any kind of a mobile application to this or is it just yeah, so you have to continually.
Speaker 2:That's a good point, because you're obviously you guys. Sitemax does this very well. I was kind of naive to the fact of how much involvement it would take, because I just knew that, because I tried to. When I was doing so, what happened was I was trying to do some of the developments, I was doing some stuff and I was working on them and I was like, well, we're grabbing spreadsheets from here, we're grabbing this, and it was just like it was just and it was the same process over and over and then, or just different types of things. I was like, well, this is. I was like there has to be a better way. So I looked into different stuff, right, right, I looked into different and there was there's a lot of, there's. There's you guys, you guys focus on on construction sites and there's different ones that like what are the other ones? Let's say Procore.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, what else is there? What else are some ones that I'm thinking of?
Speaker 1:There's like PlanHub that does, like that does.
Speaker 2:There's stuff for the architects. Yeah, there's pre-construction stuff for the architects. There's construction Autodesk.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And all this other stuff, but there was nothing that like they're all like kind of playing and they all, they all do a good job with all. Like one was focused on contracting.
Speaker 1:As soon as you say realtor, you're in a completely different realm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one's focused on the realtors and all that sort of stuff, but there was nothing that like I tried to do it. There was nothing that could really like pull it all together. And I was like, well, there has to be. And so I tried to find something. And you know, like any good problem, once you or anything it's, usually you try and find a solution, you can't. So I was like, well, I was like I could, I could like I've done this, I know what to do. Um, like why don't I try and make it? And then, and that's when the, the kind of the, the whole thing started, um, and then that's kind of. And then I was like, well, if I do this, if you add on here and you keep adding, and then it's just it snow. And you realize, well, this is more complicated than what I thought, but the outcome is, is is something better than what you would have thought as well.
Speaker 1:So Okay, so, um, you know, as you like, when we did um SiteMax before it was SiteMax, it was a Wales McClellan's internal project and you know I architected that thing. You know I had a small team of people who built it. When I say small, it was three people, it was not big at all and it was me. I was doing the UI, doing the mock-ups, designing everything, doing the architecture making and then making the decisions on what were going to be features. We're going to be doing, um, making sure that. You know I invented those with the companies to make sure that that's what they want. I had to go out in the field. Then I had to have it built, have it tested, go back, fix stuff, um, but you know, it came to a point there where, if I had just taken off and moved to Argentina or something, you know they spent a lot of money on that, yeah.
Speaker 1:And the knowledge of me, would have just walked out the door. Yeah, so you know now that you know that IP was bought by the new company SightMax, and that's what that is. But it's continued on, even though it's not even a stitch of that code as from the original one. Still, it was me that carried it on.
Speaker 2:What's that old adage Isn't it about? Like it's the proper, not the proper, but like if you take away the boat and you replace every piece of wood on it, is it still the same boat.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see, Right, yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 2:So, like you're right, you've started it and it's maybe all changed, but it's essentially that's carried on through from what?
Speaker 1:right, yeah, definitely, there's definitely some planks from the old boat, even in the new.
Speaker 2:Thing.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, of capital into this, into building it. And you know is this I mean, has it returned enough yet Almost, is it getting? I mean, if it hasn't, I mean that's pretty standard too, so don't feel bad about it, that's just the way software works. You have to get to a certain scale before it returns.
Speaker 2:Exactly so you have to get to and I agree you have to. That's one of the like right, you have to get to that scale, to right you have to put. That's like you were saying to get that big upfront cost because you had to, like you were saying, the UI, you got to do the back-end, front-end, you got to do this and all that sort of stuff and then to actually to get it to return, want, you have to write that huge upfront cost, whereas, whereas I'm telling people, like, if I just opened up a, like you just opened up a search selling widgets, right, you could sell them essentially tomorrow with a website, very little investment, um, and then make, but this is like a huge um, and so, yeah, we're getting to the point where we're finally starting to see a return on on what all that investment um, and, like you, and, as you've pointed out, it's it's harder in real estate, because one of the one of the things you can really I'm using construction, real estate all together, right, because it's all kind of intertwined, but like it's just one of the phrases is hurry up and wait right, so like, and the cycles are like two, three, four years right before what we're doing right. So now to invest all that and go through the projects, it takes a while to be to, to get that return, but now we're finally starting to see that what what we've done pay off and see the advantages and how we can and how it can right. And then and then, as you keep going through it, right, it just keeps evolving and you got to keep right.
Speaker 2:That's that's what I enjoy too. That's what I enjoy too. It's similar to. You built the platform as well, and then it changed and you added features and you get feedback and it keeps going and going, and that's what I enjoy. You get to keep making things a little bit better. Someone brought up this point let's add this, let's do this, let's do this, let's see if it works. So it's that constant iterative feedback loop. But yeah, going back to your original question, has it returned? It's starting to finally show what it can do and the potential and why. So it's very positive.
Speaker 1:Have you heard of Mercator?
Speaker 2:I haven't no.
Speaker 1:Okay, so Chloe is the founder of Mercator. It's interesting, like it's, how construction companies find construction work.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:For new contracts. So it basically goes and pulls data from certain areas.
Speaker 2:It would tell you what new permits are there, et cetera.
Speaker 1:It's kind of cool, but they're using AI to do that. So the question to you is is there some feasibility where the platform you have now could be redeveloped into something more of a SaaS, software as a service kind of offering, where you could utilize AI so that this could be a self-serve kind of platform for the different customers that you would have? So you don't even touch it, you guys don't even, besides developing new features you might help a customer on board, but after that it's self-serve, Like they're doing their thing.
Speaker 1:They're putting all the information in.
Speaker 2:That's a good point.
Speaker 1:Could you see it get to there? Because I think once you get to that point, you would see huge returns.
Speaker 2:Yeah, then you can go out and no. I agree with that. I did see I was reading an article the other day and it was about how AI will. What was it? It was essentially saying that how AI will help eliminate 80% of project management types along that lines. Well, especially for the stuff that this is doing right.
Speaker 2:Exactly so get to a point where that's a good point. I think that it could get to that point. It's just where we're still like. It's still like even in the technology and that whole as a whole is still not there. But I could see it going there in 10 years where it would be very little input but still on the cold side it still has a ways to go. I could see it getting there, but it still has a ways to go.
Speaker 1:I could see it getting there, but I just it still has a ways to go. I mean I could, I could see that. Yeah, I mean you know it. You could have something pretty cool on your hands if you I'm not saying you don't, but you can have something quite valuable from you know. You know Silicon Valley, you know venture capital, kind of um paradigm Like. I think you could.
Speaker 2:Well, that's where that's, that is where we want to go, but on our we want to. So on our side it's a good point, right? Um, we want to do it in-house, to just keep getting that. We want to get it as good and as as like. Right, Cause, then we, if we're controlling the whole process as of now, we can continue to like figure out that process and I can kind of nail down the things that don't work. Yeah Cause, right, and then just, and then maybe in Then you don't want to build.
Speaker 2:Exactly In a few years when we're like, okay, well, now we know we have this A few years, Jeff.
Speaker 1:Things don't move, things move day.
Speaker 2:I go on a feed that's going either on no, so like do you get, but and and where you can, like, iterate that and you've done that so well, that then you can, then you can pivot to that area where you can. Yeah, I, it is definitely. One thing that is is constantly on my mind is how you could do that, um, but yeah, so what's um?
Speaker 1:what's next for Revelloper, like what, what? What do you got in the plans?
Speaker 2:It's just to continue our just because, as we go through, right data is key as in as it's the key to AI in general, but also to right. So as we go through, like getting onto the different data right, so it's sourcing and kind of getting that accurate data so that we can continue to go and then also to try and get it out to as many different things City by city. That's how things vary. So construction costs and permits and all those different fees.
Speaker 2:Every city and municipality is different, and then some of them are more open source, Some of them are in lockdown, and then to try and grab all that data you have to get from a number of different sources. So that's one of the areas where right, so once you get that, you can exponentially get the different cities. That's one of the main things. So we continue to, we can grow outward on that sense, because the back, the analysis on the back end, it's all the same, but just the data is all different. That's coming in from different sources, right, and then continue to grow on that side.
Speaker 1:What can this do for construction companies?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so for construction companies, one of the things that we do is like we have, so we'll work with the owner to be like okay, you want to build this. One of the things that came up a lot of the times was they didn't know exactly, right, you didn't know, like if you're an inexperienced, you don't really know, okay, what ceilings, what this, right. So what we did was okay, you want to go through and you want to select your building. You know, when you're building a, say, you're buying a new car or a Tesla, let's, I want this on here and it kind of builds a little model and shows we'll do the same thing. You want a small bay unit, you want this. You want these size doors Like an auto configurator kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Well, you'll pick what kind of stuff I get it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So then it'll build Like when you pick a car Exactly exactly you want your seats.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. It picks the building or construction. Now all the consultants. What about?
Speaker 1:BIM modeling. Have you thought of that? Sorry, have you thought of BIM modeling?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no we do that. The consultants will do all that as well. But on the stuff on the warehousing type stuff that we do, it's not as hugely as advantageous as a really complex BIM. And the 4D modeling is really advantageous on like a large scale, like when you get really complex and you're doing like clashing and all that sort of stuff and you're trying to phase the models and like that's when it really on most of the projects that are like, even if they're six-story, four-story wood frame or commercial buildings, it doesn't actually add that much value to model things in time series.
Speaker 1:I understand that commercial buildings. It doesn't actually add that much value to model things in time. I understand that, but I mean inevitably how things will go, is that you know when the first TV came out and it was been radio for a while.
Speaker 2:People like oh it's not everyone's going to want to be on TV. Wrong, it's just the. It's just the way, the way it will go. You know the, the 2D drawings, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean you can still use them, but I mean the barrier of entry will be so much lower. And then the architect's job. That is pretty much the bottleneck around this. They typically start with this and they spit out 2D drawings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is a very valid point. Is that we On the consulting side, everything is done in 3D modeled BIM, everything, even on all the consultants or even on a warehouse. I'll clarify that. But then what's actually like? You're saying what's spit out is a full, what the contractor gets is just a 2D drawing.
Speaker 1:But, it all depends. It all depends on what the consultants are like. So how do you want to operate this project? Who's doing it?
Speaker 2:So when you submit it to the city, you build this whole model, then it's the 2D model, and then the guys, the contractors, most of them, some of them do 3D models, but on site it's still just the paper. So you're doing all this, it still right. So you're doing all this it's still.
Speaker 2:It seems like a digital plan exactly we're doing all this stuff, um, and then it's almost a waste because, like no one ever utilizes just the architect or consultants and they don't actually give it to the contractors. I think that brings, like it just there's a slow adoption in construction, right, as you know. Like just it's, like it's a very uh shallow or um.
Speaker 1:Why do you think that is? Why is it slow?
Speaker 2:Just because I think it's because things it's just if it works right, there's no reason and like, if it works, there's no reason to kind of to really to change it, or to there's no, I don't know if there's really like a benefit or a kind of an advantage to really be the first, like there's no advantage to switch from wood frame to a new construction thing, cause you've got as a contractor, everyone knows wood frame, they know how to frame out of it, or they know how to build, they know concrete, they know how to build a tilt panel or they know how to do that. You try and bring in some new product right Now the general, the electrician, he doesn't know how to use it. It's a huge change thing. And then the labor. It was supposed to save me money, but I don't have access to the same trades, all this sort of stuff. So it's like, how do you get that to then extrapolate across the whole?
Speaker 1:construction environment. So it's slow because there's no like yeah, it's not like pick up a cell phone, there's too much brain damage for change.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and the supply chains and all that sort of stuff are made for a certain way, whereas technology can. On that side, if you look at that, it's easy. If I can get a phone, I can get an app, I can get everyone utilizing that Whereas construction, you're delivering a physical product that's deeply entrenched. I always say, for example, we do in Alberta. Let's just say, for example, one of the things that they do when they do an industrial building or a commercial building it's precast. I see, Right In the lower mainland, it's tilt up. Yeah, Like 90% tilt up in lower mainland, 90% precast in Alberta. And why is that? You could do either, like you could do precast over here.
Speaker 1:Temperature Can't build in the winter.
Speaker 2:Exactly so some of those things are. And then also, like it's entrenched now in that culture, like there's construction cultures as you get to different places, right, so this is how we do it. So now you're starting to see an intake, like now guys are finally bringing precast into BC and as an adoption, because of labor and stuff, it's just, but it takes a while and it takes, and then it, but it takes a while and it's different. It's not that much different, it's just a little bit different, even just a little bit different. It just takes a long time to actually get. And then people are like, oh, this actually works, they utilize it, but still it's just like I was talking about years earlier. It can take a very long time just to make something as simple as a tilt-up to a precast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting you say that because you know I had Russell Cook from Cook's Construction in. Alberta and Calgary and they do raised access flooring and he had, as one of his colleagues sued, they wrap a product from Australia and they were saying that other places in the world are, you know, 80% raised access flooring inside and then here it's like really low and it's like what you're saying, that precast is popular in Alberta and not as much here. But so it's interesting that these trends of you know of change happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is interesting why it. Yeah, I've thought about it for a while and like why it takes so long. You're like it's just, it's just, it's just that cycle to kind of make change.
Speaker 2:It's just, it's hard but it's changing pretty quickly now yeah, I mean the the cycles of change in construction are going very, very fast well, and you see, and for an example, we, so I you've heard of nexi, right, yeah, so they went, they, um, they anyway, I think, I think they went bankrupt now. But or they declared bankruptcy, but they had a product and they were trying to change things and, just like we were saying, and it was a great product, but just the fact that they were trying to get people to change, trying to revolutionize the construction industry, yeah, they were trying to revolutionize that whole thing, but it takes a lot of money, like you're saying, patience and money, and eventually one thing is going to get in. And I was involved in some of those projects and it was just more of like we don't know how to work with this product, we don't know how to do it. So then it's the slow adoption, different trades, all that sort of stuff kind of brought up to this point where there's like, well, I could just do this in wood frame or I could do this in concrete, very easily. I don't understand All these little small things just add up.
Speaker 2:How do I drill into it? How do I attach it? How do I put roofing on it? How do I glue to it? It just adds up. They tried to. They tried diligently to.
Speaker 2:Eventually they realized it's harder than it looks and why so many people have failed, and why, um, and why, yeah, why just the? The rate of change is still just slow yeah, so okay.
Speaker 1:So, um with reveloper, how do people get in touch with what's the website's reveloper?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's reveloperca nice, okay, cool.
Speaker 1:And then you're on linkedin je Krohn. Yeah, jeff Krohn.
Speaker 2:K-R-A-H-N.
Speaker 1:K-R-A-H-N. Yeah, Where's that from?
Speaker 2:Germany.
Speaker 1:Ah, the Germans.
Speaker 2:Well, it's originally from Ukraine and then into Germany.
Speaker 1:yeah, Ukrainian Germans yes, I like it. Okay, cool, I'm not going to do rapid, did it last time.
Speaker 2:So just cut over, put the wrap. No, no, no, we just no, we don't need it. Okay, well, this is cool.
Speaker 1:Any last words before we sign off here.
Speaker 2:Not really, I think. I think, yeah, my last thoughts would just be that that there is a lot of change coming and I think that, like you were saying, like with technology and stuff, like there's just a way to augment the way we're doing things and just and kind of right, because people, like the construction or whatever it's always going to be, I think, still centered around people. It's more, just augmenting and making them more effective, just like that whole, just that whole revolution, or we'll call it. The change is just to make things people do more with less, as all that sort of stuff. And I think that's where there can be a huge advantage of just simplifying things and making them just right, augment them and make everything needs to be the nail Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:That's cool, Jeff, Thanks. Well, that does it for another episode of the site visit. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. Well, that does it for another episode of the Site Visit. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. You can also sign up for our monthly newsletter at sitemaxsystemscom slash the site visit, where you'll get industry insights, pro tips and everything you need to know about the Site Visit podcast and SiteMax, the job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and beyond. Sitemax is also the engine that powers this podcast. All right, let's get back to building.